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Oral Histories

The oral history interviews presented here are selected from a series of interviews with former ILGers, conducted by Fordham University historian Daniel Soyer in 2008 and 2009.

Henry Foner - ILGWU Heritage Project

  • Interviewer: Daniel Soyer
  • Date: June 10, 2009
  • Recordings: 1 part; 1:45:52

Biographical Information

Born in 1919 and raised in Brooklyn, Foner followed his brothers into the teaching profession; however, due to his involvement with American Student Union and Young Communist League, was passed over for an appointment. He served in the U.S. Army from 1942-46, and was awarded the Legion of Merit. He taught as a substitute teacher from 1946-48, playing in a dance band in the summers. In 1948, through one of his brothers, he became Education and Welfare director for the Joint Board of the fur and leather workers' union. Following the death of incumbent Sam Burt in '61, he was elected president of the Joint Board. He was active in many causes and led labor movement opposition to the Vietnam War. He served for a time as a vice-chairman of the Liberal Party. In 1973, he went to Spain as part of a delegation to observe the trial of the Carabanchel Ten. He continued as union president until 1988. After retirement, he remained active; as of 2009, Foner was president of the Paul Robeson Foundation, and serving on the editorial board of the periodical Jewish Currents. His own literary projects also involve him with the victims of 1950s "witch hunts" and their descendents.

Abstract

Foner discusses his background as a political activist, musician, and teacher. At the time of his entrance into the fur and leather workers' union, Sam Burt was head of the Joint Board, and Ben Gold international president of furriers' union. He describes the leadership style and significant activities of Gold. In the late 50s, Foner was partially responsible for arranging a merger with the meat cutters' union, a move which helped to insulate the formerly Communist-led furriers from further political attacks. He discusses the political liabilities of the Communist presence in union leadership, and steps which Gold took to diffuse or preempt criticism. He describes the corruption in the labor movement in the 50s and 60s as well as the furriers' avoidance of corruption under its leftist leadership. He discusses Mayor Lindsay's campaign and administration, and the change in the Liberal Party stance on the Vietnam War, as well as the Party's decision-making dynamics and relationship with the ILGWU. He helped to organize union representation at the Labor Assembly for Peace in Chicago. He explains his own reasons for his engagement with the Liberal Party, and describes relations with politicians and labor leaders such as Lindsay, Ed Koch, David Dubinsky, Al Shanker, Victor Gotbaum, and Jack Sheinkman. Also discussed is the union's position on imports and animal rights. He compares and contrasts the policies and histories of the Amalgamated, ILGWU, and his own union. Mentioned are the Ocean Hill-Brownsville crisis and teachers' strike of 1968. The interview concludes with a discussion of the way in which the furriers' union dealt with ethnic and racial diversity in contrast to that of the ILGWU, and the unions' position on immigration, as well as Foner's own.

Project Description

The ILGWU Heritage Project documents the history of the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union by collecting oral histories from retired union officers and staff. It is funded by a grant from the 21st Century ILGWU Heritage Fund (Jay Mazur, president; Muzaffar Chishti, director) to Fordham University.

Part 1, 1:45:52

Transcript

[0:00:00]

Soyer:

OK, this is Daniel Soyer, interviewing Henry Foner, on June 10th, 2009. So as I said before, since this project really is on the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union, I'm not going to go into maybe a lot of depth about some of the other aspects of your career. But I do want to get a little bit of a sense of how you got involved in the labor movement and with the furriers. So why don't you say something about how that happened?

Foner:

OK. I was -- like my brothers, I was a teacher. But when I was getting into teaching, I wanted to teach English, because I had done a lot of writing, and -- but at that time I was told that the English list had not moved for two decades. So they said to me, "If you really want to make progress, (laughs) get into the commercial subjects." And since I had already started typing books for my brothers, who were writing, especially Phil, who wrote over 100 books, I said, "Let me get into stenography and typewriting." So I had been going to uptown City. And I went there for a year and a half. But once I decided that I was going to go into commercial subjects, I moved from uptown to downtown City, because that was the business area of City College. And I graduated from downtown City. And while I was there, I took the examination for teaching stenography and typewriting. About that time, along came the Rapp-Coudert Committee. And I had three brothers in one or another aspect of the college. My brother Moe was working in the Registrar's Office. Phil was teaching uptown. Jack was teaching downtown. Jack and Phil were twins, so they couldn't teach in the same place.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

Otherwise, students would mistake one for the other, which they often did. So they had one in each of the two branches. And I took the examination. But the Rapp-Coudert Committee came along. And I was active in the student movement, at that time, in the American Student Union and also in the Young Communist League. So I was, quite naturally, called before the committee. And so that, when I -- after I took the exam, there was -- while those people who took the exam and passed the way I did were appointed pretty quickly, I wasn't. And I went into the Army, waiting for the decision. I had appealed to the state Commissioner of Education, who I remember was named Spaulding, at that time. And I was waiting for a decision, and got into -- I went into the Army in 1942, awaiting this final decision. I came out of the Army in 1946. I had had a -- you know, an Army career where I was awarded the Legion of Merit, which is the fourth highest award, and the Italian Military Valor Cross. So I thought that, with that background, the board would have -- give me my license. But it didn't work. However, the -- one of the superintendents, whose name was Ernst, liked me and he recommended to the principal of Prospect Heights High School that she would do well to hire me as a substitute. And I taught as a substitute. I wrote a song, by the way, called, "The Lament of a Substitute," which I'll sing to you before I leave. So I taught as a substitute for 16 -- from 1946 to -48. One of the other things that the Foner Orchestra was known for was the band.

[0:05:00]

We had an or-- we had a band. And we were not great musicians but we had a high IQ. I used to say we had the highest IQ with the lowest musical quotient. So '46, '47, and '48, the summers, we played at Arrowhead Lodge. And we played during the year at dances. Those were days when people danced with each other. And so it was an exciting time. I met my wife in '47. And she was a guest at Arrowhead Lodge. And we were married in '48. And she died in 1982. So we had a long marriage and it was quite successful. In any event, after I finished -- I'm sorry. After I finished teaching three years as a substitute, the decision came down from the state commissioner that my appeal was denied. At that time, my brother Phil was writing a history of the fur and leather workers. And he introduced me to some of the leaders, Ben Gold -- Sam Burt was -- and I was hired as the educational director of the Joint Board. There were two major sections of the union in New York, the Joint Board, which covered the dressing and dying section of the industry, and the Joint Council, which covered the manufacturing section. I was with the Joint Board. And I was educational and welfare director. This was a period when being a welfare director was very important, because it was just the beginning of union welfare funds. And if you were honest, you were very valuable to the union. If you were dishonest, you were in keeping with what was going on. But I was honest. So I was both the educational and the -- in charge of the welfare and pension funds.

Soyer:

So this was in 1948, that you joined --

Foner:

I came in in --

Soyer:

'48, forty--?

Foner:

-- '48. Exactly. And in '61, Sam Burt, who was the president of the union, died suddenly. He went on a hunting trip to Canada and died while he was there. And I was elected to replace him. It was a very difficult period, because I didn't come from the industry. I had to -- you know, I was starting from pretty much scratch. But by the time I left, which was nineteen-eight-s-- left in eight-s-- twenty-one years, from '61 -- 26 years.

Soyer:

And -- yeah. Right.

Foner:

'87.

Soyer:

'87.

Foner:

'87 is when I retired. By the time I retired, I -- I knew the industry pretty well. And it happened to be a time when the industry was under considerable attack by the animal rights people. And it needed spokespeople very badly. And I was able to represent it and -- on television debates and so on. So I had a good reputation, and a good standing with the members. And so I would say that my stay as president of the union was quite successful. Now in nineteen--

Soyer:

Di--?

Foner:

I'm sorry.

Soyer:

Did you go directly from being education director to being president?

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

Yeah?

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

Ho-- why did that happen? Was-- weren't there any vice presidents in -- in the way or --?

Foner:

Oh, no. In those days, there -- vice presidents were rank and file people. The -- the president was the -- was the mainstay. And Burt had a very good reputation. Because when Lepke and Gurrah were around, Burt and Potash were the only two union people who were willing to testify against them. So they had quite good standing in the -- both in the labor movement and generally. So anyway,

[0:10:00]

it was considered kind of unusual that I should leapfrog to president but, considering the fact that my record in the union was -- was a good one and that the members liked me and I negotiated good contracts -- and I stayed out of jail! (laughs) So that combination was good enough. And -- and, any event, while I was president, in 1954, Ben Gold resigned. And when he resigned, a fellow named Abe Feinglass took over as president and negotiated a merger with the meatcutters, so that, in 1954, we merged with the -- the meatcutters' union. And that gave us respectability, because, before, you know, the union was pretty much known as the Communist union, but, once you came into the meatcutters, they were the -- the dominant factor. And so that, when -- when it came to political action, it was not unusual that the Liberal Party should come to Burt, later to myself and say, "We'd like you to come in and join with us." And so that, by about that time, Rose got to know me and was impressed with what I was doing. And so I became a vice chairman of the Liberal Party.

Soyer:

When was that?

Foner:

I would say about '56.

Soyer:

[At?] --

Foner:

Maybe two years after I -- now, I played a significant role in the election of Lindsay. And that was a major, kind of, turning point, because with Lindsay the party switched from having been pro-Vietnam war to anti-Vietnam war. We were able to persuade -- McNamara and I, largely, were able to persuade Alex Rose that the war was not a good idea and that the party should be anti-war. And so, from that point on until Rose died, the party played a progressive role. But it was still not what I would call a party. Going back to the ALP, which in retrospect I can be critical of now, for following the party line -- but at least they had meetings. And -- and the Liberal Party was pretty much a top-down thing. Rose made the decisions. And they may have been good decisions but they still were not democratic. And so he and Dubinsky went along with the party -- with the Liberal Party. But Stulberg, who replaced Lindsay -- replaced Dubinsky, was against the Liberal Party. So that you had, for the first time, a split be-- the ILG going one way and the Liberal Party going another. And that happened until -- pretty much until Rose died. That's when -- pretty much when Harding became -- Harding had been playing a role in the party. And, I guess, when Alex Rose died, his role was amplified somewhat. I never was impressed with him. I always felt that he was -- I always thought that he was -- there was something dishonest about him. And life has proven that. So by 1987 -- nineteen-- twenty-- 28 year-- I have to figure back, to -- I became president in '61 and I was president for -- for 27 years. So by 1988, I felt that I had had it. And we had a couple of inner par-- inner union questions, so it was a good time for me to retire. And so I retired in 1988, and since then have been

[0:15:00]

involved in a number of activities. I am presently working with my two colleagues on Labor Arts. I'm working on -- I'm president of the Paul Robeson Foundation. I'm working on -- I'm on the editorial board of Jewish Currents magazine. So there are a number of things -- the -- the -- time does not weigh heavily on my head. And it's not unusual for me to be interviewed about my experiences. And fortunately, I'm articulate about them, so that I remember things that happened. And I was -- early on, when I was 12 years old, my two brothers, my older brothers, bought a portable typewriter and brought it into the house and said, "Type." And I learned how to type. And it stood me in good stead. I used to -- when they were writing their books, particularly Phil, I typed a good deal of it. And a good way to learn is to type. And so I learned labor history from the source. And since then, I've -- I've been busy in a variety of projects. And the reason that you got my name is because this latest activity that we're working on is for the ILGWU. And we were meeting about it today, to wind it up. We've been -- we've been working on five aspects of the ILG, the -- organizing the unorganized, its cultural activities, Pins and Needles, immigration, healthcare. So that it's been enough to keep us occupied. And I'm very lucky that I -- I have these people. The work w-- and in addition, there's two women with whom I'm working on publicizing the -- the attacks on civil liberties on teachers. And there were a lot of attacks on teachers. And there were -- a lot of teachers were discha-- fired, including from my own family. So that's another aspect that I've just really started to work on. And -- and then I meet with people like you. So you asked me to give you a kind of a thumbnail sketch. That's pretty much the story.

Soyer:

OK. So there's -- let's go back over some of this. I'd like to get some more detail. You came into the furriers' union as the educational director. What was the --?

Foner:

Not of the whole union.

Soyer:

Of the Joint Board.

Foner:

Of the Joint Board. Remember, there was --

Soyer:

Right.

Foner:

-- also a Joint Council. And then there was an international union. And each of them had their own educational director.

Soyer:

OK. And Ben Gold was the president of the international. Who was the head of the Joint Board? Was that S--?

Foner:

Sam Burt.

Soyer:

Sam Burt. OK.

Foner:

And I was very impressed with Burt, not only because of his courage -- it took a lot of courage to -- to testify against Lepke and Gurrah -- but also because he was a remarkable leader. He had a pretty heavy accent but the workers loved him. And one of the ways that I could get the workers' respect, early on, was to pay tribute to Burt. Somebody once said to me, "What do you talk about Burt for, so much?" And I said, "Because when I talk about Burt, it helps me." (laughs)

Soyer:

Hm. Did he come out of the shops?

Foner:

Huh?

Soyer:

Had he come out of the shops himself?

Foner:

He had come out of a shop but a long time before. He was originally in Philadelphia.

Soyer:

Hm.

Foner:

So he had headed the union. The union came from what was called the Industrial Union, which was the -- kind of the Communist-dominated group that came into existence. And later, during the organization of the CIO, the industrial unions kind of blended in or merged in, so that Lewis had no objection to using Communist organizers. So the Communists played a considerable role in the organization of CIO.

Soyer:

How about Ben Gold? Can you say something about Ben Gold?

Foner:

Well, Gold -- Gold was a -- a very colorful figure.

[0:20:00]

Workers liked him very much. He also was quite courageous, and a very good organi-- a good organizer, in those days, meant a good negotiator. And he negotiated good contracts. And he was ultimately elected to the presidency of the union. And the union was called the Fur and Leather Workers, at that time. I neglected to mention that, during the last few years of my tenure, I arranged a merger with another part of the fur and leather workers. And in 1955, I think it was, I took a trip to the Soviet Union, along with Bernie Willis, who was the head of a -- a section of the leather workers in upstate New York, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. And we hit it off very well. And we came back to New York. One of us -- I forget which one -- said, "We should -- why don't we merge?" And people said to me, "What a stupid thing to do. Willis has ten-- has seniority over you." I said, "Don't worry about it. I'll -- it'll work out." And, of course, it did work out. Together we organized all of the leather workers in New-- in Newark, and there were many of them. And he was the best organizer. I knew what I was doing. I got him. He was the best organizer I had ever worked with. And so -- and I had my things that I could do, educationally and so on. So together we were -- we were just a very good team. And -- and I say, together, now we covered people in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, through him West Virginia, which was much broader than when it had been -- when it was just a New York union. So in the latter part of my -- my tenure, I was regularly going to West Virginia and going to upstate New York and Pennsylvania and, in that way, broadening my knowledge of the union and broadening my contacts with members of the union. And that was helpful all the way. Willis, unfortunately, during an illness, I think, was given a -- something happened with his anesthesia. And from that time, he didn't have all of his marbles. So his last few years were difficult. But it was one of the smartest things I ever did.

Soyer:

Merging is a very dangerous thing to do, as we've learned recently.

Foner:

Yeah. And everyone -- you know, people said, to me, "What are you doing this for? It's crazy. You'll lose control." I said, "Listen, that kind of loss of control I can live with." And -- and it worked out well. And sometimes your instincts are good. And in this case, my instincts were -- were very good.

Soyer:

And were all these people members of the Communist Party?

Foner:

Were all the --?

Soyer:

These leaders who you've mentioned, members of the Communist --?

Foner:

Well, Burt was. Gold was. But Gold was smart enough to have, in the leadership, non-Communists, so that there would be at least representation of non-Communists in the leadership. So you'd have Samuel Leibowitz representing the Hollander workers, and so on. In other words, there were -- he was careful enough to see that there was enough representation of non-Communists in the leadership that, at least ostensibly, you could say the Communists were not dominating the union. Gold was a very smart leader. So was Burt. Burt was not only intelligent but very capable. And the important thing that I discovered about these people was that they knew how to win the respect of the workers. So that, if -- first of all, they were honest. Nobody ever brought any charges against either Gold or Burt on the question of --

[0:25:00]

of dishonesty. And this was a period, by the way, in which corruption was really flagrant in the labor movement. It was all over the place. So that you were kind of unusual if you didn't take money. In our own union, in the Joint Council, my -- the person who was the parallel to myself ended up in jail for taking money. So it was a -- you know, not an uncommon thing. And the temptations were very strong. Listen, if you control the livelihoods and the contracts of people, it's -- and you let the employer know that you're available to take money, it's going to be offered. And it was. And I let the employers know. And oddly enough, you win respect for that. Leaders of the union who are crooked are not respected by the employers they deal with. Because why should they respect them? They -- but if you're honest and you represent your workers properly, you may cost them more money but at least they're dealing with somebody whose name or whose word they can trust. So that's one of the things -- one of the many things that I learned in the union.

Soyer:

Can you remember any specific incidents where you were offered bribes?

Foner:

Yeah, yeah. I remember it was -- it -- I remember, in that -- a particular section of the union, the -- the fur blenders, an employer came in. And he said, "Look, it would be to my advantage if you could give me a better contract." And I sent him scurrying. And the word got around pretty well. Employers talk to each other, just as union people talk to each other. And the word got around that you don't play around -- no sense offering stuff to Foner; he's not going to --

Soyer:

He offered you money.

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

How much?

Foner:

We didn't get to that.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

We just to the fact that it was worth his while.

Soyer:

Oh, OK.

Foner:

And I sent him scurry--

Soyer:

Scurry--

Foner:

-- scurrying -- is the word. And, oh, the other thing that happened that was interesting was -- remember, the Vietnam War was taking place at this time. My brother Moe was at the 1199. He had started out at 65. Then he went to 1199. And he was kind of second in command to Leon Davis. And we worked together a great deal. First of all, he often needed songs. And one thing that I have done throughout my career is write songs. Incidentally, I wrote a -- I co-wrote a musical show in 1947, called Thursdays 'Til Nine, for the department store union. And it was put on. And the songs, they didn't make the hit parade but we got good notices. In any event, Moe and I worked very closely on the question of the war, mobilizing union people against the war. And when the Labor Assembly for Peace took place in Chicago, he and I were responsible, to a considerable extent, to getting unions to send representation. So that, by the time we got finished, the union movement was pretty well represented in the labor peace movement. There were those aspects of the labor movement that were not so peaceful, where they beat up students and so on. Because someone was just asking me about one of those examples, of when students were marching up Broadway and they were set upon by hardhats and they were very badly beaten. So in any event, working with Moe -- we worked together very well. And when you have two twins in a family and two singles, the singles tend to gravitate together. So we did. And it worked out very well.

Soyer:

So tell me a little bit about the structure of the fur industry. And it -- I mean, it's part of the garment industry, really. Fur is clothing.

Foner:

Yeah. Well --

Soyer:

But how did it -- how did it relate to the rest of the garment industry in New York?

Foner:

Well,

[0:30:00]

badly, because politically there were sharp differences. Now once the merger took place with the meatcutters, that was improved, because, once we were respectable, so to speak, I got to know Dubinsky and we -- you know, we became closer. But when I met Dubinsky's daughter -- Shelly can tell you that -- that -- what's her name? -- that Evie said that Dubinsky's daughter doesn't talk to her anymore, because she supported something that we were doing.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

When I met Dubinsky's daughter at her house for dinner, she said, "Oh! It was your -- your boss threatened my father -- (laughs) threatened to kill my father." That was the int-- our introduction to each other. So there -- there were disagreements -- but largely political. Listen, you've been around. You know that there were sharp differences -- political differences, not only among painters but also among union leaders.

Soyer:

Well, this is why -- this is one of the reason why I'm a little -- it still seems a little funny to me that you found your way into the Liberal Party and that they accepted you.

Foner:

Well --

Soyer:

First of all, why did you want to be part of the Liberal Party?

Foner:

Why did I what?

Soyer:

Why did you want to be part of the Liberal Party?

Foner:

Well, for one thing, the ALP wasn't around anymore. For another thing, I was quite impressed with Lindsay. He -- he was a -- I found him a -- and particularly, it coincided with the Vietnam War. And I was able to influence him. I have a very good picture taken after he had spoken -- we had an open-air rally against the war and I have a very good picture taken with me and him shaking hands. But why did I --? I gravitated toward them because at that time they agreed with the way I felt about the war.

Soyer:

So that was the mid-'60s, though.

Foner:

That was in the '60s, yes.

Soyer:

Right. So that's when you joined -- you became part of the Liberal Party? Or was it earlier?

Foner:

Yeah. No. The mer-- let's see. The merger took place in '54. It took a little time for me to get adjusted. But there was a period, I remember, when Rose became interested in me. By the way, before I left the union, I was offered the -- does the name Ben Davidson mean anything?

Soyer:

Sure. Mmm hmm.

Foner:

Well, Davidson was going to retire. And Rose offered me the position. He said, "Listen, Henry, we need somebody who's young."

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

And I was really going to take it. But I took a trip to Florida, where the union was having a convention, and I saw Bernie Willis. And I didn't have the heart, at that time, to leave him. Because he -- he was starting to feel the effects of this problem. So I -- Rose was down in Florida, at the time. So I took a trip over to where he was. And I said, "Alex, no, I -- I can't do it. I -- I'm going to stay at the union." I couldn't -- with the relationship that we had, I couldn't leave him, and to just have full responsibility. He would have -- it would have been a -- a very bad blow. Later on, he -- he became -- each industry had its representative in the leadership of the union but Bernie was selected to replace Feinglass. And I didn't argue with -- about it. He -- he had been around longer than I had been and he deserved it. But by that time, you know, he was -- he was a shell of his former self. You know what happens to people when people get affected either with -- in this case, it was too young for -- what -- what --?

Soyer:

Alzheimer's.

Foner:

Huh?

Soyer:

Alzheimer's.

Foner:

Yeah. He was too young for Alzheimer's. But he was not too young for dementia. And oddly enou-- funny -- strange things happen. When we were involved in --

[0:35:00]

in defending the industry against the animal rights people, I introduced him to some people from one of the fur -- Alaska seal companies and we had lunch at one of the restaurants. And Bernie said to me, dur-- after the meal -- he said, "You know? I still feel sorry for those seals." Fifteen years later, just before he died, I went to visit him at the hospital. And the last words he said to me were, "I still feel sorry for the seals."

Soyer:

Hm. (laughs)

Foner:

I just couldn't get over that. But that's one of the things that I'm -- I feel very proud of, because I helped to extend his tenure in the movement. Because his -- his section of the industry was on the decline but putting us together enabled us to organize new sections. And it just worked out very, very well. But I forget what question I was answering.

Soyer:

I'm not sure. But did -- so did the industry -- did the fur industry face some of the same kinds of pressures as the rest of the garment industry --

Foner:

More.

Soyer:

-- in terms of imports --

Foner:

More.

Soyer:

-- and things like this?

Foner:

More. Because nobody attacked coat makers for animal rights. But the animal rights people were extremely active on the fur industry. And, you know, they had raids and they did all -- and at least I was comfortable with my position. Because the animal -- the fur animal populations needed management. If you didn't manage the population, they died very quickly. So I had the advantage of being able to say something I believed in. And I had debates on -- some on television with some of the -- some of the spokespeople for the animal rights movement. And I think I came through pretty well.

Soyer:

When did that start?

Foner:

The attacks?

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

Late '60s. But continued pretty regularly. You heard about --

Soyer:

To today. Sure. Mm.

Foner:

People for E-- PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

Foner:

They even attacked people who wore fur.

Soyer:

Sure.

Foner:

I got paint sprayed --

Soyer:

Oh, really?

Foner:

-- (inaudible). Mmm hmm.

Soyer:

Hm. Did this -- this ever put you in an uncomfortable situation in your social circles or in --

Foner:

Oh, yeah --

Soyer:

-- the outside political circles?

Foner:

-- regularly.

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

But listen, if you're coherent and articulate, you can generally explain, "Look, there's an -- there's a point of view that you ought to take into consideration. And that is that the animal populations -- if you speak to people in the animal management movement, they will tell you that, if the populations are not managed, they will die off much more quickly." And so I had the advantage of having not only the industry on my side by logic on my side. And that's always good when you can do that.

Soyer:

Were there also problems with imports? Were there problems with imports like there were in the -- in the other --

Foner:

Yes.

Soyer:

-- branches?

Foner:

Oh, yes, yes. And very -- China, in the most recent period. I don't thi-- I don't even know if there's an industry left here. Because the Greek -- Greek workers have come in such large numbers that they replaced the -- the non-Greek workers, largely. So I've lost -- pretty much lost track of what's going on in the industry. But the im-- yes, imports played a significant role. So if you add imports and the attacks on -- by the animal rights people, you had an industry that was under considerable attack.

Soyer:

Right. How did you try t-- you discussed how you tried to deal with the attacks from animal rights activists but how did you try to deal with the problem of imports?

Foner:

Well, largely by indicating the effect it was having on jobs, you know,

[0:40:00]

from work-- on workers here. Just as the representatives of any other industry that was being affected by imports would -- would deal with it. They would make appeals for defending the jobs of the workers involved. Now, the intelligent unions assisted the labor movements of these other countries, with the notion that, if you helped raise the living standards of the workers in these countries, you did two things: One, you helped raise living standards and, two, you put the industries there in a position to be more competitive and so you reduce the impact of the imports. But there were very few unions who had the --

Soyer:

Did you try to do that?

Foner:

Yeah! We tried to do it. We -- but we were pretty much alone on this. It was -- oh, and there's one other thing I should mention to you. I told you that in '54 we merged with the --

Soyer:

The meatcutters.

Foner:

-- meatcutters. But not too longer after that, the meatcutters merged with the retail clerks, to form what's called now the United Food and Commercial Workers, UFCW. That's been another cup of tea. I never felt comfortable there. I felt that -- A, that the -- (laughs) there wa-- I thought that there was a considerable amount of corruption in that union. Whenever the leader -- Pat Gorman was the leader. When he would come into New York, the New York leaders would say to him, "Listen, Pat, we were at the racetrack yesterday and we put a lot of money on for you. (laughs) So here it i-- here are the results."

Soyer:

Hm!

Foner:

And they found ways of, you know, giving him -- giving him money.

Soyer:

He was from the meatcutters, though.

Foner:

Yeah. This was from the meatcutters.

Soyer:

He was from the meatcutters.

Foner:

He was from the meatcutters.

Soyer:

He had a reputation, I think, of being very progressive.

Foner:

Yes! And he was. Oddly enough, when I went -- I went to Spain to participate in the trial of what was called the Carabanchel Ten. There were ten people; who were trying to form unions, at the time of Franco. And they were being tried. And we put together a delegation, headed by Ramsey Clark, and we went to -- to observe the trial. And when I got -- when I got back I got this wonderful letter from Gorman, that I had performed a service for humanity. And it included a check. So that was good.

Soyer:

Oh.

Foner:

But, yes, he was progressive. I could always go to him with -- and he listened very carefully to the problems. And he had a -- he had a reputation in the union. But listen, even people who were progressive in the union, if they -- you tempted them enough, they took money.

Soyer:

Hm. It seems to me the ILG, when imports started affecting the business here, their reaction was often to work more -- A, to work more closely with the employers --

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

-- to try to make the employers here more competitive but, at times, also to kind of lower their standards, in a way. They -- at one point, they started opposing increases in the minimum wage --

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

-- [because of?] this.

Foner:

But there's other things that they did that were not too appetizing. There were some buildings in the garment district that were verboten as far as the union was concerned, because they had a record in the past of having helped the union to organize. So -- and there were a couple of buildings that the union said to the organizers, "Stay away from those." Secondly, it was not uncommon for ILG business agents to visit their shops with umbrellas. That was the joke. If you went with an umbrella, it meant that the employer was going to put some money into it. And the third thing that they -- that was a -- there was a problem of the employ-- the wor-- the business agents taking -- having -- staying away from certain shops, taking money. You've heard some problems about the ILG leadership, some aspects

[0:45:00]

of the leadership being of questionable -- and -- I don't think it applied to people like Dubinsky. But there -- there were -- oh, yes, I know what the third thing wa-- there was a particular section of the union, called the truckers. And you must have heard that, that they were -- they had a very bad reputation for dishonesty. So between all of those, you felt pretty comfortable when you were in opposition. When -- but listen, you unite with a lot of strange people. Even teachers unite with strange people. So you have an idea what -- by the way, do you run into my nephew, Eric, along the way?

Soyer:

I have. I've only met him once. Because he's a good old friend of my cousin, Danny Beagle.

Foner:

Danny Beagle!

Soyer:

Yeah. Who used to be the editor of longshore workers' union in the West Coast and is Sy Beagle's son.

Foner:

Which Beagle's son is he?

Soyer:

Sy Beagle -- and Rebbie -- and Rebbie Beagle. They were very active in --

Foner:

OK.

Soyer:

-- the teachers' union.

Foner:

OK. I was trying to -- I was confusing them with Jack Bigel, who was another Beagle.

Soyer:

That's someone else. We're not related.

Foner:

Good.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

But -- oh, so you met him once with --

Soyer:

At a par-- at a party.

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

I know your niece, Nancy, because we were on some committees together.

Foner:

Yeah. Yeah. I have the -- I'm very proud of -- of the family and -- as a matter of fact, I just -- when -- I mentioned to you that we're now publicizing the activities of the -- the witch hunt committees. Well, we're contacting -- we're contacting the descendents of a lot of the victims. And I have a whole section of my book with Foners, because Jack's children were affected, Moe's children were affected, Phil's children are affected, my children are affected. So we alone could form --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

-- form a committee. Eric -- well, you -- you know a piece.

Soyer:

Well, I read -- I read a lot of his books. I mean, he's --

Foner:

He --

Soyer:

-- he's a very important historian.

Foner:

But I never typed his books.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

But I typed his father. When I came home from the Army, his father had a very terrible thing happened. He had his PhD thesis and they went on a Christmas holiday to a farm up in Poughkeepsie and the farm burned down. And it was the only copy of his thesis. (laughs)

Soyer:

Huh.

Foner:

So he had to literally start from scratch. So when I came out of the Army, I was so sympathetic, I said, "Listen, Jack, I will set aside every Friday afternoon after I've finished teaching and we'll work on the book." And we finished it. He fini-- got his PhD. And the last few years, he -- not the last years of his life, because he retired -- but he worked up at Colby for a number of years, and only because he was able to get his PhD. So I played -- learning to type was a very helpful thing as we went along.

Soyer:

Was there any --? You merged with the meatcutters. Was there any -- ever any thought of merging with the Amalgamated Clothing Workers or the ILG?

Foner:

No.

Soyer:

Would that have been possible at all?

Foner:

No. The only thing that happened with the Amalgamated Clothing Workers is that I worked with them -- the Amalgamated Clothing Workers were very active in what was called the National Labor Committee, which covered union movements, particularly in Central and South America. Sheinkman was very good on that. He gave them space in the Amalgamated building. They're now -- they're now down in -- in Pittsburgh, I think at UE. Because they've had difficulty getting places to stay. But they have done a remarkable job. I don't know if you've heard anything about it.

Soyer:

I've heard of it, yeah.

Foner:

They've done a wonderful job. And Sheinkman was very supportive of them, from the very start. And I admired him very much for that. He didn't need to.

[0:50:00]

And it was a period when Meany was not very friendly to opposition groups like that. You know, it was opposition to the CIA. But Sheinkman stayed with it. And there were times when he made personal sacrifices in order to advance causes that he believed in. So I had respect for them. What's happening now -- I don't know if you have any notion of what's happening now but it's almost unbelievable the in-- you know, the infighting that's taking place. I worked very closely with the guy who headed the -- I'll think of his name in a mo-- the one who headed --

Soyer:

With --

Foner:

-- the ILGWU -- the mer-- the merger.

Soyer:

Mazur?

Foner:

Not him.

Soyer:

Mazur? Raynor?

Foner:

[Wasn't?] --?

Soyer:

The ILG was Mazur.

Foner:

No, Mazur was -- yeah, ILG, but not -- at the time of the merger with the --

Soyer:

With HERE.

Foner:

Bruce Raynor.

Soyer:

Bruce Raynor.

Foner:

I worked with him at the time when he was organizing -- he was organizing the -- the company in the South. And they made the movie, Norma Rae, about that. But everybody goes through changes. I think that -- I don't know what's happened to him. I knew Wilhelm when he was organizing in Yale. And I had a lot of respect for him. So if I had to make a choice right now, I would choose Wilhelm.

Soyer:

Oh, Yeah.

Foner:

But who knows? It's -- it's just a -- a ter-- and nothing good is going to come out of it. Because what's going to happen is that the whole campaign for the EFCA is going to be badly affected. When -- when the labor movement is disunited, you know what happens.

Soyer:

Sure.

Foner:

The employers reap the benefit. So.

Soyer:

Now a lot of people I've been talking to, IL-- old ILG people, did not like the Amalgamated people. And they didn't have a high opinion of the whole Amalgamated culture.

Foner:

Really?

Soyer:

Yeah. So I'm wondering --

Foner:

Well --

Soyer:

They're -- and they're very bitter, not -- not just about the merger with HERE but even the merger between the ILG and the Amalgamated --

Foner:

Oh. Well, it's ver--

Soyer:

-- already, which is already 15 years ago.

Foner:

Fif-- it's very late to -- to be --

Soyer:

Yeah. Well, you know --

Foner:

-- bitter about that. But --

Soyer:

But what is your -- what is your take on the -- how the ILG compared, let's say, to the Amalgamated?

Foner:

Well --

Soyer:

And how does it compare to your union? And --?

Foner:

Well, we were always closer to the Amalgamated, in the sense that, because the Amalgamated was what we considered more progressive, we were able to unite with them on more issues. When we were organizing against the Vietnam war, for example, Sheinkman was on our committee. We had a very interesting experience. The name Victor Gotbaum --

Soyer:

Sure.

Foner:

Well, Gotbaum said, "I'll come on the committee but I have to be chairman." And (laughs) that's not unusual in the labor movement. And Sheinkman said, "OK, I'll step down. You'll be chairman." Now for a leader -- labor leader to do that, that's really something. But that was the kind of guy that Sheinkman was. He was very modest. And there was a time when he could have become president of the International. It was between him and someone else, whose name escapes me. And the other guy came in and said, "Listen, if I -- if you don't support me, I'll get -- bring Potofsky back again." So Sheinkman said, "All right, you've got it." And he never became president of the -- of the International, simply because he -- he had the interests of the union very much at heart. There aren't that many people around, as you may have discovered -- there -- the labor movement, there's -- has its share of, you know, people who are interested in self-promotion, and more they're interested in the welfare of their members.

Soyer:

Something -- I have the impression, before I was doing this, that the Amalgamated was a little bit more assertive in organizing, you know, in, you know, the '70s, '80s, '60s, seventie--

Foner:

Well,

[0:55:00]

probably later, yes. Earlier, the ILG w-- this exhibit that we're working on -- it's -- it's not Shelly.

Soyer:

Right, I know but it's in the other room.

Foner:

It's -- it's where the people were sitting.

Soyer:

(laughs) OK.

Foner:

This exhibit that we're not working on is about a couple of outstanding campaigns that the ILG had. They had the Kellwood campaign in the South and they had the cam--

Soyer:

L.A.

Foner:

Where was it?

Soyer:

L.A.

Foner:

No, then they had L.A., where they involved the Hispanic workers. But there was a time when they did the -- a considerable amount of -- of organizing. And there's a fellow by the name of Marty Morand. Did you ever --?

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

Well, before you -- I didn't bring my book with me.

Soyer:

No.

Foner:

All right. You'll call me again at home. Morand is someone you should speak to. He worked for the ILG. He wor-- he was the -- in the Southern section of the ILG, and did a -- did a remarkable job. And he can tell you -- give you a lot of information. And a good deal of it will apply -- not to the Liberal Party, so much, because, remember, his activity was largely outside of New York. But I found Marty Morand extremely helpful in knowing the inside stories of what was happening in the ILGWU. And when I give you -- if you call me, I'll give you his number. Call him and say, "Henry Foner suggested that I talk to you," and you want to talk to him. I gather you -- you did talk to Parmet. Or you di--?

Soyer:

No, I have not talked to Parmet.

Foner:

Are you -- but you're scheduling Parmet?

Soyer:

I don't have him -- right now we're talking really to -- mostly to peop-- to staff and --

Foner:

If --

Soyer:

-- and officers of the ILG.

Foner:

Now whom are you reaching on the Liberal Party?

Soyer:

Well, this is a little -- that's kind of separate. That's my own personal research project --

Foner:

Oh, oh, oh.

Soyer:

-- which is a little bit separate --

Foner:

I see.

Soyer:

-- from this. But they kind of overlap. So that's how I got into this.

Foner:

Oh. Oh, OK. Yeah, you're not -- I gather you're not talking to Harding.

Soyer:

I was -- he was on my list but I didn't get to him in time.

Foner:

But -- but I'll tell you who is around. Henry Stern is around.

Soyer:

I talked to him.

Foner:

OK. Because he wants to have lunch with me. And Laurie Steiler and he are in the same building. Laurie Steiler is the woman I'm working with on the witch hunt problem. And she said, "Henry Stern is eager to have lunch." And I said, "OK, we'll arrange to have lunch." You talked to Stern.

Soyer:

I talked to him, yeah.

Foner:

OK. Was it helpful?

Soyer:

It was somewhat helpful. He had some interesting things to say.

Foner:

Well, remember that he -- what's-his-name wooed him away from the Liberal Party.

Soyer:

Koch.

Foner:

Koch --

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

-- wooed him away and gave him -- listen, wooed him -- gave him -- game him a --

Soyer:

A job.

Foner:

-- a position. So. And Koch, I never cottoned to. Because we had a very interesting experience. The -- Koch had a -- an uncle who was in the fur industry. And when we were attacked by the animal rights people, Alex Rose agreed to arrange a meeting with Koch for me and a delegation from the industry, so we could persuade Koch to support us. So --

Soyer:

This was when he was mayor or when he was in Congress.

Foner:

He was in Congress.

Soyer:

OK.

Foner:

Because Congress is where he would be effective. So we go up to his office. And if you know Koch, you know -- you'll understand this. He says to me, "Listen, you can say what you want, Foner, but I've already made up my mind." (laughs) I was furious. These guys say to me, "What -- what'd you drag us here for? He doesn't have anything to say." Couple years later, Koch is running for mayor. No, he's running for governor. Sorry. And he's running against Cuomo. And he wants the Liberal Party support. And he comes to the committee for the Liberal Party. And he walks into the room and I said, "You can say what you want, Ed, (laughter) but I've already --" I'd been waiting for two years to be able

[1:00:00]

to say that. It's very unusual that an event like that can take place. He -- he was -- there -- there were -- he was distasteful for -- to me for many reasons. I ran across a woman that I had gone to public school with and she was getting an award from Koch. And she said, "Henry, come to the ceremony. I'm going to be awarded." I said, "OK." She told Koch. Koch said, "What do you want him there for?" (laughs)

Soyer:

Hm.

Foner:

So I'm not -- I'm -- I have different opinions of different people. Koch, I never cottoned to. But Lindsay I liked. Lindsay was -- you could talk to him. And he was a -- I found him to --

Soyer:

Now did you support him originally, in '65, when he first ran? Or did you --

Foner:

No.

Soyer:

-- come on board a little later?

Foner:

I supported him when he ran for reelection on the Liberal Party line. Because that's when we got involved. And -- and I was chairman of the Labor Committee. And I have a picture taken in one of our meeting. He was very grateful, because I mobilized a large number of labor leaders to hear him. And it was not easy for him to get to talk to labor leaders, at that time. So he was -- he was very grateful. So when I asked him to come to one of our membership meetings, he came. And it was a very -- it turned out to be a very -- a very good event.

Soyer:

Do you think he was a successful mayor?

Foner:

He was a successful mayor, in respects. And some respects, he ran into problems that he couldn't solve. He -- so like the sanitation strike and the -- but listen, some problems Alex Rose couldn't solve.

Soyer:

Right.

Foner:

So anything that Rose could solve, Lindsay could solve --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

-- because he depended on Rose for a lot of his -- a number of people -- I sat in on a meeting between Rose and Wagner -- the original Wagner. And Rose said, "And then, Bob, you're going to go to Staten Island and you're going to speak before this and this group." And Wagner wrote it down. And he said, "And then, when you're finished there --" And he just laid out for him exactly what he was going to do in the campaign. And Wagner didn't let out a peep. He just knew that this was the guy who knew -- he had to listen to. He knew what to say. So if you -- whatever research you do on the Liberal Party, try to get the opinion of people who had an opportunity to work with Rose. And I'm going to give you the name and phone number of Jim McNamara. And the good thing about McNamara is that he has a sense of humor. And so he and I would go together to Rose and we would try to persuade him to come on our side on the Vietnam war. And we -- (laughs) there was a city that was being fought for and it was called Khe Sanh. And Rose called Khe Nass.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

So every time Alex -- McNamara and I would talk, he would say, "How are thing in Khe Nass?" But you'll -- you'll find him very interesting. He played a very important role in dealing with corruption. He was a very close advisor to Morgenthau. So that Morgenthau depended on him a good deal in dealing with corruption in the labor movement. And now he's still with the AUD, the Association for Union Democracy -- which has bestowed upon me the title of Poet Laureate.

Soyer:

OK. (laughs) That's good.

Foner:

And but --

Soyer:

Tell me something -- tell me something more about Rose. Did he just influence the political activities of -- of Wagner and people, and Lindsay? Or did he also have policy input? Was he interested in policy input?

Foner:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. He had -- but they were kind of secondary. His interests were largely -- how shall I put it? -- strategic. You didn't go to Rose to

[1:05:00]

get a -- you didn't go to Rose to get an analysis of the situation in the Middle East. But you did go to Rose to get a situ-- an analysis of the situation in the 17th (laughs) Congressional District. In other words, that was his -- his strong point was clearly political know-how. And it came to him almost like -- you know, it's -- it was almost like a natural thing that was part of his -- his being. By the way, I meant to tell you a funny story. I was campaigning for Javits when he was running. And I went to this home in my neighborhood.

Soyer:

What year?

Foner:

That's -- has to be the year when Javits was running. I don't remember.

Soyer:

Was --

Foner:

He was -- wait a minute. No, Lindsay.

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

Lindsay was running. And he was not too popular among some of the Jews. And I went to this household and I said to the woman, who was registered Liberal, who -- the wife -- but her husband and her daughter were there. And I said, "I'm here from the Liberal Party," nuh nuh nuh. And the husband, he didn't let his wife say a word. He said, "Well, who are you here for?" I said, "Li--" "Lindsay, we don't want him." So we went through the whole thing. The wife didn't say a word. The daughter called me in after a few minutes or ten minutes and said, "Look, you've had enough. Why don't you take off? It's creating a problem here." So I start to go out. And I get to the door. And for the first time, the mother's voice is heard. She says, "Tuck in your shirt." (laughter) I told that story to Jimmy Wechsler, from the Post, and it ended up in the -- in the Post.

Soyer:

Did --? Go ahead.

Foner:

Go ahead. No, I'm -- I'm --

Soyer:

Well, so did you have a lot of contact with the rank and file Liberal enrollees, at that time?

Foner:

Say it again?

Soyer:

Did you have more contact with rank and file Liberal enroll--?

Foner:

No, because you didn't -- you -- the one thing you didn't do is have contact with the rank and file. There -- there -- the -- see, the ALP may have been Communist controlled and it certainly was but at least they had meetings. They tried to get unions that were active to bring their members together. I -- when -- when Major Owens ran for the first or second time, we called together a meeting at one of the high schools in Brooklyn. We filled -- we filled the auditorium. Be--

Soyer:

That wasn't the ALP. That was after.

Foner:

No, that wasn't the ALP.

Soyer:

OK.

Foner:

But -- but it's an example of what you -- we were trying to do to -- to involve the union and union members. But I never knew -- remember the Liberal Party doing something like that. Now, I don't criticize them for that. But I don't think Rose thought in those terms. I think he thought in terms of getting the policy done and passing it down and making sure that the word got around to the significant people. But I don't think he thought in terms of involving the rank and file.

Soyer:

What was he like personally?

Foner:

Huh?

Soyer:

What was he like personally?

Foner:

Oh, he was -- well, he -- I was very -- he liked me. So when someone likes you, you like them personally. And but he also had a -- he had a good sense of humor, which is absolutely essential for anybody, in life. He had a good sense of humor. And he was very smart. And my relationship with him was -- I was surprised. I never thought that -- when we merged with the -- with the meatcutters and I started to get active in the Liberal Party, I never thought that they would reach out to me to become active. But they did. And I think he was largely responsible for it.

Soyer:

Hm. When you were convincing him to oppose the Vietnam war, how much convincing did he need? Was he someone who had ins-- you know, kind of instincts that would be against the war or --?

Foner:

I think -- I think, when we started, we started

[1:10:00]

behind -- we started in -- in a negative position, because he had already been worked on for quite a while. And remember, Dubinsky had a good deal of influence on him. And Dubinsky started out being in -- in favor of the war -- and, as time went on, changed. And that's what caused the break between him and Stulberg. He told me once a story about that, shortly after he became president -- shortly after Stulberg became president, he said to Dubinsky, "Now, David, I have an office around the corner and I want you to take care of the retirees." Now if you wanted to insult Dubinsky, all you had to do was say, "Take care of the retirees."

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

He was furious.

Soyer:

Hm.

Foner:

And -- and Stulberg felt that Dubinsky had played him down for a number of years and he was going to get -- get even with him. So everybody has their thing and they -- and they do it. But and one of the reasons that I think that Alex changed his position was I think because Dubinsky was starting to change his position around that time, and I think the two of them kind of went together. They were very close. I was able to observe that Rose depended a good deal -- and Dubinsky depended on Rose's opinion. He would -- Rose's opinion carried a great deal of weight with him.

Soyer:

Was there anyone else in the Liberal Party who carried any weight, at that time?

Foner:

Do you have any names that you could think of?

Soyer:

Well, the obvious ones are like Donald Harrington --

Foner:

Yeah. Harrington carried weight, no question. Because -- you know, his position carried -- remember, he's a Church of the -- he's the pastor of the Community Church, well known in the community, very good reputation. Having him aboard was something that Alex was very, very proud of. I'm sorry I didn't think of it until you mentioned it. The answer is, yes, Harrington had a good -- good deal of influence on him. Stern didn't. Stern once -- we had a meeting on -- on Vietnam. (laughs) Stern came to the meeting. But Rose said to Stern, "You go to the meeting and give me a report." So Stern fell asleep at the meeting (laughs) --

Soyer:

Huh.

Foner:

-- came to us afterwards and said, "What happened?"

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

No. I'll have lunch with him but I'm -- I'm not overwhelmed with respect. Who el-- anybody else that you've run into?

Soyer:

Tim Costello -- Timothy Costello?

Foner:

Yes, yes. Costello ran for -- what was tha--?

Soyer:

Council president.

Foner:

Huh?

Soyer:

Council president.

Foner:

Council president, on the -- for -- yeah. Anybody who would be in that position, like Costello, wouldn't be named for it without Rose's approval. So, Costello, yes. Costello had consider-- what happened to Costello?

Soyer:

I don't know.

Foner:

I think he died.

Soyer:

I think he -- I think he died -- but maybe not too long ago, actually. I think he died maybe a couple years ago.

Foner:

And what about Harrington?

Soyer:

He died a year or two ago.

Foner:

Really?

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

Well, he -- he married my dau-- he -- my daughter was married in his church. No, if you -- if anything occurs to you, that -- whether you wanted to check on Alex's opinion -- I think I knew it pretty well. Because in the course of discussion with him, we would cover -- we'd cover a lot of ground. I would ask him, you know, "How to you feel about this?" Because it was important to me not just to be on the -- on the same side as him but to know where he stood. And I found that, as we went along -- I tell you, he wouldn't have offered me this position to replace Davidson if he didn't feel comple-- he had real confidence. And when I came told him I couldn't do it, he was very disappointed.

Soyer:

Was -- when -- when you

[1:15:00]

became active, did -- there wasn't anyone -- any of the old-timers there in the Liberal Party who said, "What --"

Foner:

Only -- only --

Soyer:

-- "What have you got to bring that Commie in here for?"

Foner:

No, only -- God, his full-time guy -- I was trying to think of his name. Do you run into --? The guy who -- who was kind of his -- his gopher. I think his name began with a P. Anyway, when I wrote a -- I wrote a song about how to -- it was, "The clubhouse boys are getting ready to move back into City Hall, downtown." You remember the song, "Downtown?"

Soyer:

Mmm hmm.

Foner:

And this guy heard it and he said, "Alex would like to hear the song." So I sang it for him.

Soyer:

Who --?

Foner:

And I can't remember his name. But if you -- there -- you are going to run across a guy who was kind of Alex's right hand when it came to dealing with other -- with --

Soyer:

There's --

Foner:

-- legislators. And you'll run across his name. Or I'll remember it. But you asked -- he -- he was very close to Alex. And I think that Alex, whenever he had a job to do, he would rely on this guy to do it. And --

Soyer:

So the que-- so I asked the question whether anyone objected to your presence and you started to talk about him. Did he object to your presence, as a Communist --

Foner:

I think --

Soyer:

-- or former Communist?

Foner:

I think that --

Soyer:

And weren't you issued a -- weren't you issued a -- a public apology, when --?

Foner:

Oh, about the --

Soyer:

That's on the Rapp-Coudert.

Foner:

-- Rapp-Coudert.

Soyer:

But in the Liberal Party --

Foner:

But the Liberal Party --

Soyer:

-- they had a very --

Foner:

-- this was --

Soyer:

-- anti-Communist tradition.

Foner:

-- this was over by then. There was--

Soyer:

Right. So but there must have been old-timer-- of course, the Liberal Party started very anti-Communist. That was their whole --

Foner:

Yeah. Yeah.

Soyer:

-- reasons -- reason for existence.

Foner:

Yeah. Well, I -- I imagine that there -- there were people who must have said to Rose, "What the hell is he doing -- this guy doing here?" But I think that, by that time -- I don't know. It's -- it's hard for me to -- to figure. Alex never said to me, "Listen, I'm getting complaints from people about you." So I don't know. I imagine there were people who did. But some of them left, (laughs) you know, with the --

Soyer:

The ILG.

Foner:

-- with the ILG. When the ILG left, some of them left. And I'm sure there were people who complained. On the other hand, the fact that the -- that Rose was favorably impressed, I think helped to impress other people as well.

Soyer:

There were other issues also that started to divide the party and divide the constituency of the party --

Foner:

The only issue that was --

Soyer:

-- like the Oc--

Foner:

-- that was -- that comes to mind, because it was so much on everybody's mind at that time, was the Vietnam war. It was creating divisions all over the place. And I got a -- I got a call a few weeks ago from the guy who heads the Cornell labor school. They're closing it. So he's -- he's going to college. He's taking a course. And he wanted to know what I knew about -- there was an event where the students against the war were marching from downtown up, I guess, to City Hall. And the hardhats were waiting for them. And they beat the hell out of them. And he wanted to know if I had any -- and I showed -- I gave him a copy of our union paper, in which we wrote about it. So that was helpful.

Soyer:

What about things like Ocean Hill-Brownsville --

Foner:

OK.

Soyer:

-- or the housing projects in Queens?

Foner:

Ocean Hill -- well, in the housing project in Queens, I think that -- that -- what's the name of --? Simeon Go--

Soyer:

Simeon Golar.

Foner:

Golar was very close to -- to Rose. So he -- he would have been -- and he had a lot of impact. I was able to get Golar to come to our union civil liberty and civil rights committee, down in New Orleans, actually. But Ocean Hill-Brownsville. When does that --? I know -- I know the event. But when does it take place, in relation to the --?

Soyer:

It's '68. It was '68 also -- '68-'69 school year.

Foner:

Then it -- then it wa--

Soyer:

I think it really started sixty-s--

Foner:

Then it -- it must have created --

[1:20:00]

Soyer:

And Shanker was a member of the --

Foner:

Don't tell me.

Soyer:

-- Executive Committee of the Liberal Party. That's --

Foner:

I know. The day that the -- the day that Lindsay was -- won the election, I was with Shanker in the hotel room, waiting for the results. And how I got through that meeting, I can't tell you, but it was a -- it was not -- not too pleasant. I once --

Soyer:

What was -- what was going on?

Foner:

Huh?

Soyer:

What was going on?

Foner:

Well, we were in disagreement about the -- a number of things, including the -- the question of the union's position on -- on Ocean Hill-Brownsville. And, for example, I went to a meeting in New Jersey of the New Jer-- Newark teachers. And it was a rally in support of the strike. And Shanker was there. And after I got back to the office, I got a call from his assistant and he said, "Al would like a fur hat." So I said, "OK." So I got him a hat, with earlaps. And I wrote a note, saying, "Don't let the earlaps blot out constructive criticism."

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

I got it back the following week, saying, "It didn't fit." (laughter) And I had -- well, I don't know. I don't want to -- don't want to get into -- how you felt about it. I didn't feel that the union's position was -- was vindi-- justified. But remember, this is a period when I would have tended to go with the Communist Party position. So it's hard for me to separate one thing from the other. But I think, if a -- if I had it to do over again, I would still feel that the UFT -- first of all, I was a supporter of the Teachers' Union, and still am. So I would tend to be in opposition to the UFT, because the two organizations weren't in -- were in contradiction to each other. I don't remember too much about the Liberal Party position with respect to the -- I -- I would have to go -- did -- did they have a position?

Soyer:

You know, I do-- I don't think that it was a major -- they were majorly involved but I think that Rose was sympathetic to the s-- to the decentralization experiment.

Foner:

Yes. I -- I think that, on -- on most issues, that Rose -- I don't think he would have asked me to come aboard if he didn't feel that we -- we agreed on -- on most of the issues. So I think he was in favor of -- of a number of things -- I don't think he was overly impressed with Shanker, for example. And so it's hard me to -- that's why I'm suggesting that you talk to McNamara, because Jim will have some memories of the things. Because we would frequently go to see Rose together. And -- and Jim -- Jim, as I say, had a very good sense of humor and -- and we would kid a-- it would -- if you didn't kid about these things, they become -- they would become so weighty that you wouldn't -- you couldn't deal with them. So he was active in the par-- he was also active in Rose's union. He was a -- and active in the hatters' union. So in two respects, he -- I don't know whether he would have been in the Liberal Party if it weren't for the hatters' union.

Soyer:

You mentioned the Communist Party. Were you a member of the Communist Party?

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

Until when?

Foner:

I was a member of the Communist Party in when I first came into teaching. Yeah. And left it, I guess, around the time of the Khrushchev speech, when, you know, a number of people left it. And today, I'm very critical. I feel that I was not at all sufficiently aware of what the hell was going on at that time. But I'm not alone in that. I feel that the acceptance of everything from the Soviet Union and from the Communist Party here was just unwarranted. And it's one thing to concur -- to have the --

[1:25:00]

the determining voice in a party that is not in control but to have the determining voice in a party that's in control of a country and that also -- not only in control of a country but, at the end of a war, oh, is literally in control of a whole area, is frightening. And it was frightening -- what happened. And so I thought -- I feel that I've learned something from -- from what happened. And if I had it -- what -- what is it people say? If I had it to do all over again -- somebody -- there was a comedian who said, "If I had it do all over again, I'd do it all over you."

Soyer:

(laughs) So were you still around in the Liberal Party when Rose died?

Foner:

No. We didn't get to -- we didn't get to Moynihan.

Soyer:

Oh, OK, Moynihan.

Foner:

The break between us came on Bella. See, Bella I knew from way back. We had been to college at the same time. He -- we didn't go to the same college but -- she was in Hunter and I was in City. And we were both in the student movement. And I even remember flying to Washington with her to visit some congresspeople. So when Bella was running, I was very active in her campaign. And when Rose -- Rose was really vicious, and dealing with Bella and really sent people to -- I think he sent one of his people to convince Moynihan to run. I'm not sure how strongly Moynihan felt. But I think Rose had a determining factor -- role in getting him to run. So the answer is when he died, we were already in disagreement. But the large thing that separated us was Bella.

Soyer:

Hm. I -- I was surprised to read somewhere that there was even a little bit of support for Bella in the Liberal Party. I was surprised that there was even a little bit of support for her. But it seemed like there was.

Foner:

Oh, yes!

Soyer:

People like Harrington -- Donald Harrington were --

Foner:

Oh, yes --

Soyer:

-- kind of sympathetic.

Foner:

-- there was support for her. The morning after the nomination -- you know, she lost the nomination by a very small -- I got a call from O'Dwyer, who had run -- who was on the ballot. And he said, "Henry, can you influence Alex to put Bella on the Liberal line?" Because he felt so guilty that his presence, together with what's-his-name -- there was another person, the one who went to --

Soyer:

Ramsey Cla--

Foner:

Yeah. The one that went to Spain with me. Ramsey Clark.

Soyer:

Ramsey Clark.

Foner:

Ramsey Clark and O'Dwyer both ran. And without them, you know, Bella would have won handily. So there was -- there was a good deal of support for Bella, and in the Liberal Party. But by that time, remember, the party has evolved, gone through the Lindsay years and so on. And a number of people were affected -- influenced by that, what had happened. And I had some influence. I would -- you know, I would be at -- I would be named for committees that represented the party at conferences and so on. So the answer is, yes, there was a considerable amount of support for her. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it. But, you know, you don't think of it. And, of course, it was a very important part of my relationship with Rose.

Soyer:

And so after that, you were no longer --

Foner:

No.

Soyer:

-- as active.

Foner:

No. It was too -- it was too traumatic to overcome. No, it was just a very rough -- rough time.

Soyer:

What was your opinion of Ben Davidson?

Foner:

Well, it's Davidson that I was supposed to replace.

Soyer:

Right.

Foner:

There was very little -- Davidson had very little -- what can I say? So he -- he was Rose's man. And I don't think that Davidson had too many

[1:30:00]

of his own strong opinions. I think he knew what Alex felt and that he knew that he was expected to carry it out.

Soyer:

Hm. How about Herbert Rose, Alex's son? Did you have contact with him?

Foner:

How about --?

Soyer:

Herbert Rose, Alex's son.

Foner:

Very -- not much. And whatever I had -- knowledge I had was not too impressive. Have you had an opportunity to interview any of the other people?

Soyer:

No, just -- the only person I've talked to so far is Stern -- is Henry Stern.

Foner:

Oh, you did talk to Stern.

Soyer:

But -- yeah. I haven't talked to anyone else yet.

Foner:

Unh huh. Well --

Soyer:

I hope --

Foner:

-- Stern'll probably tell me that he talked to you. So.

Soyer:

If he remembers.

Foner:

(laughs)

Soyer:

See if he --

Foner:

Was he -- is he losing his memory?

Soyer:

I don't -- no, no. He probably has a very good memory.

Foner:

Unh huh. Well, listen, he's had a -- he's had an interesting career.

Soyer:

Yeah.

Foner:

He was the assistant to Myerson, the beauty queen. What was her name?

Soyer:

Bess Myerson.

Foner:

Bess Myerson. And he was so frightened of her that, if she said, "Don't go to that meeting," he wouldn't go.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

OK.

Soyer:

A little bit more about the ILGWU. One of the criticisms of the ILG sometimes is that it did not adjust to the new demographics of the workforce. And I'm wondering if you have a sense of, first of all, how your -- if your union faced similar issues and how you dealt with them differently or the same as the ILG --

Foner:

Well, no --

Soyer:

-- or what the ILG could have done differently.

Foner:

-- no, because the Joint Board, unlike the Joint Council, which was overwhelmingly Jewish and then Jewish and Greek, the Joint Board had large numbers of people from -- from Central America and from -- mostly Central America. Lyndon Henry was the vice chairman and assistant to Sam Burt. And Henry was African-Amer-- not African-American. What am I thinking of, for people who come --?

F2:

[Well, you?] --

Soyer:

Caribbean, West Indian

.

Foner:

West Indian. Well, there were a large number of West Indians and other blacks, so that they played an important part in the -- and there were -- I don't think there was any parallel between what happened in the -- in the fur union -- at least, the fur union, there were never any charges by the NAACP or anything like that about the fur union. Inside the union, there were some people who felt that Gold didn't give enough recognition to some of the black leaders. But there was no real criticism outside. You know -- you know what happened with the ILG. You know Herbert Hill --

Soyer:

Right.

Foner:

-- made it almost a personal crusade to go after that. No, I think the furriers just had a pretty well recognized position. And I think it was generally understood among the -- in the black community as well, that the union had a good record on that, and in promoting people to leadership and fighting for their rights -- not perfect. Nobo-- (laughs) I was going to say, nobody's perfect. There were people who -- who had some criticisms, and whether the union advanced its black leaders to -- sufficiently -- but nothing comparable to what Hill was saying about the ILG.

Soyer:

Do you have any sense of whether Hill was justified in his accusations?

Foner:

I have to assume yes, because, knowing the people like Dubinsky, I would figure that their tendency -- and Zimmerman, that their tendency would be to depend on the people they were closest

[1:35:00]

to, not necessarily that they were discriminatory but they were more comfortable. And if you're more comfortable, unless you make a conscious effort -- and I think that people like Gold and Burt, because they were Communist, made a more conscious effort, whereas, in the ILG, unless you made a conscious effort to overcome this question of women leaders and black leaders, unless you -- you were conscious of it, the tendency was to be more comfortable with the people that you -- that you had. So I -- I wouldn't attribute all of it to -- to chauvinism -- oh, I haven't used that term for a while --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

But some of it, at least, to the fact that, you know, you're -- you seek out for leadership the people you -- that you feel that you're more comfortable with.

Soyer:

Did you have -- did you have much contact with Dubinsky?

Foner:

Only once -- personally, once. I spoke -- there was a Liberal Party meeting at -- I guess it was the Hotel -- one of the hotels and I spoke. And when I finished, Dubinsky said to me, as I walked pa-- "He made a good speech, the furrier."

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

One thing you've got to know about people like Dubinsky, they never spoke in the first person. They would always speak in the third person. So that, if he wanted to say that, he never would say, "You made a good speech." He said, "He made a good speech, the furrier." I was tempted to say, "I'm not a furrier" --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

-- but I let it go. I think that's the only real direct contact. Yeah. Because I didn't meet with him up at Rose's office. And I have no memory of -- other than this exchange, I have no memory of --

Soyer:

How about Zimmerman?

Foner:

Zimmerman, not at all, just reputation.

Soyer:

How about Gus Tyler?

Foner:

Tyler, more since he's left than --

Soyer:

OK.

Foner:

-- than now. But when -- when my brothers were going to high school, they were on the debating team and they debated against Tyler, who was on the Boys' High School team. Jack and Phil were on Eastern District. And I have memories of that debate. Because Eastern District didn't have a basket-- had a basketball -- didn't have a football or baseball team, so debating was a major sport. So here they appear as -- in contact. And he and I both speak to a group of visiting scholars from England. And I said to them, "Do you realize that, 60 years ago" --

Soyer:

(laughs)

HENRY FONER: -- and I gave them the number of years, "this man debated against my brothers?" Well, you know -- but I was in touch with Tyler in the more recent years, since he -- because Tyler and my brother Moe maintained a pretty good friendship. So he and I were -- you know, were friends. And there were times when --

Soyer:

Friends, despite their -- despite their political differences?

Foner:

I'm sorry.

Soyer:

Despite their political differences --

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

-- they were friends?

Foner:

Yeah. You know. They're -- sometimes you can overcome. And but remember, by that time, the differences weren't that -- that sharp. By that time, I would be talking to Tyler -- the -- you know, Moe was already in 1199. I was in the meatcutters, UFCW. No, I had -- I respected Tyler. I thought that -- I really thought that Dubinsky would name him to be president to replace him but he didn't. And I never found out why. Maybe you'll find out --

Soyer:

Maybe.

Foner:

-- in the course of your --

Soyer:

I don't know.

Foner:

-- in the course of your research.

Soyer:

Were there -- how about when you were educational director? Did you ever have contact with people like Mark Starr or --

Foner:

No. No.

Soyer:

-- Ralph Reuter?

Foner:

When I was educational director, you -- you didn't -- an educational director of the furriers would not have contact with Mark Starr. This -- differences

[1:40:00]

were too sharp. But, you know, we did have contacts with -- with unions that were either left or 65. And beside, the band would play at events. We never played for the ILG but we played for some of the other unions.

Soyer:

How about people who came after Dubinsky, like Stulberg or Chaikin? The presidents after Dubinsky, like Stulberg or Chaikin or Mazur, did you ever have contact with them?

Foner:

Mazur, most recently. Oh, Mazur, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. We occupied the -- the -- our office was moved to 275 Seventh Avenue and we were on the same floor as Mazur's office. It was a time when Muzzy was there. And we were in the -- on the same wavelength on immigration. And he and I would be on the same platform, outside, in an open-air meeting. We'd be on the same platform, talking on immigration. There weren't that many union leaders that talked on immigration. So we tended to. When we met other, now, that we're working on the project, it was a -- a friendly reunion. And Muzzy I was very close to, because he was the advisor on this issue. And I always liked him. I always felt comfortable with him. And so the answer is, with Mazur, yes. Who preceded Mazur?

Soyer:

Chaikin.

Foner:

Oh. Chaikin, very little. I once got a ticket for parking and he said, "Don't worry, I'll take care of it." And I had to pay.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

So I didn't -- I (laughs) didn't like him too mu-- no, Chaikin I -- I wasn't impressed with. Mazur, I thought, was -- I thought was better, because of his relationship with the Chinese workers. I felt that Mazur had a strong bond with the Chinese workers.

Soyer:

Yeah. Seems like there's a lot of -- on the union leaders, they're always kind of trying to fix things for each other, parking tickets, hats, or things like this.

Foner:

No, not really. I think this was the only time that I asked (laughs) a union leader to fix a ticket. But I have a memory that it didn't do me much good --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Foner:

-- that I ended up paying for the ticket. So.

Soyer:

Is there anything else --? And you've been working, now, on this ILG history project.

Foner:

Yeah.

Soyer:

So I'm wondering if you have any overall insights on the trajectory of the ILG, and not so much about its very early years, which are very well known and very heroic, but, [let's say, after?] --

Foner:

No, I -- I think I've -- I've gotten a greater appreciation, particularly on the immigration problem. I -- I am so angry about -- you know -- do you remember the day when Ford made the statement, "New York --"

Soyer:

Mmm hmm.

Foner:

"-- drop dead."

Soyer:

Right.

Foner:

Well, on that day, Local 3 of the electrical workers had a demonstration outside City Hall, "Get rid of the immigrant workers." And I was so furious. Because, you know, for unions not to support-- first of all, to say that they would bring down the conditions of wa-- and wages is ridiculous. If you -- a union has a contract, nobody's going to bring down the conditions and wages. And if you don't have a contract, you're better off working -- by the way, there was one funny story. The -- The Wall Street Journal has a good -- had a good position in immigrants. Because they wanted the -- to help the employers who wanted to bring them over as workers. So they had a -- a good position. I got a call from one of our employers and he says, "Listen, I got a -- I got a call from Immigration. They're going to be coming here tomorrow. They're going to station themselves in front of my door and they're going to check every person's credentials." So I said, "OK." I called up the -- Immigration and I said, "I understand you're going to this shop tomorrow in Long Island City." Said, "Yes." I said, "That's good, because I'm calling The Wall Street Journal." (laughter) They said -- they called back 15 minutes later and said,

[1:45:00]

"We've called off the visit." They didn't want to antagonize The Wall Street Journal. So it happened to be a good move. Sometimes I -- I got ideas that were -- if you use imagination, by the way -- and what -- Moe and I would share imagination on some of these things. 1199, Moe instituted the Bread and Roses program, which was quite remarkable. And I wrote some of the songs for them. So it's been an exciting time. And I've been glad to have an opportunity to share it with you.

Soyer:

Thanks.

Foner:

I hope it was helpful.

Soyer:

I think it was helpful, yes. It was --

[1:45:52]

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