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Transcript

[00:00]

Soyer:

This is Daniel Soyer interviewing Barbara Laufman [on December 18, 2008], for the ILGWU Heritage oral history project. And we'll ask Ms. Laufman some questions about her experiences in the union. But first, I just wanted to get some sense of background. You mentioned that you were Cath-- your husband Jewish but you were raised Catholic. So why don't you tell me a little about your background, your family, the community you come from?

Laufman:

You mean when I was young or --?

Soyer:

Your -- yeah, your --

Laufman:

Oh.

Soyer:

-- family life.

Laufman:

I was one of nine children. I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. I was the third from the youngest. My -- and I was n-- born of Italian Catholic extraction. Or is that reversed? My husband was -- And his parents came from Austria, Romania. He was Jewish and he lived in the Bronx. And we met at the Roseland dancehall, in the year "dot," when I wasn't supposed to be there, at the age -- ripe old age of 16.

Soyer:

What part of Brooklyn were you from?

Laufman:

Williamsburg. We met at the Roseland, didn't see each other -- maybe I was 15 -- didn't see each other for a while, then re-met at another dancehall, called The Carnival. He forgot my name, which irritated me, so I decided to pay him -- really make him suffer, married him.

Soyer:

What was his name?

Laufman:

Joe, Joseph. And moved to the Bronx with his mother, who, he was the sole supporter. He was the youngest of eight children. And our apartment, the apartment we were living in with his mother, burned down on March 21st, 1950. We got married on February 13th, 1949. The apartment burned down March 21st, 1950. It was a six-story apartment house. And we lived in the sixth floor and everything on the sixth floor was down on the first floor, just burned right through. Stupid reason. At any rate, we then -- his mother went to live with one of his brothers and we went to live with my parents, in Brooklyn. And we commuted every day. He commuted to work in the Bronx by train. I worked in Williamsburg. I worked in a garment factory. I was a sewing machine operator. My sister taught me how to sew on the power machines and taught me how to work. And I became a member of Local 89 -- which is really funny, because years and years later I wound up being a manager of Local 89, which I thought was really funny. But at any rate. We then -- Should I stop?

Soyer:

Go ahead.

Laufman:

Well, then his mother got very, very sick. After the fire, she had a stroke and she got very, very sick. We got an apartment up on Gun Hill Road, in the Bronx, in a newly built project on that corner, Gun Hill Road and White Plains. And we all moved in together, my husband, myself, and my mother-in-law. And then she got -- and had another stroke -- I stayed home. I quit working in the factory, stayed home, took care of her, until she passed, on September 28th, 1951 -- oh, 1950 -- 1950. She died September 28th, 1950. And we stayed there. And I went to work again, part-time -- because money was very hard to come by, you know. I went to work again part-time at another garment factory in the Bronx. And I joined Local 89 for the second time, because there was a large span -- (coughs) according to the constitution, there was a large span in between my original membership and the second membership. And then I found that I was pregnant with my oldest daughter.

[04:55]

We then left the Bronx and moved to Brooklyn, to be near my mother, so I would have some help. And I stopped working again -- and didn't go back to work until I had five children and my youngest was two, I think it was. At that time, we owned a house in Deer Park. My sister lived next door. My mother lived in the next town over. And my washing machine broke -- which was tragic, with five children. And that was just tragic. So I went to work part-time in a garment factory, where I could earn the money to -- And my husband worked. He had good jobs. He worked the Safeway stores. They're now on the East Coast, you know, but some of them are down south. They're also known as Vons. But just wasn't enough to buy a new washing machine. So I went to work part-time to earn some money to buy a washing machine. And I said, "Well, while I'm buying a new washing machine, might as well buy a new dryer." And that was the beginning of my life. So my youngest child was two, 2-1/2. I went to work in a garment factory, became a member of Local 107. And it worked fine for me, because I was a part-time worker, per se. You know, I didn't work from 8:00 in the morning until 3:30 every day. I worked out that arrangement with the employer when I first went in. And I told them I could only work from 9:00 to 2:00. And he said, "OK." You know, there was a lot of work. They needed operators, at that time. So that's what I did. This way I would get my kids all off to school, do what I had to do. I mean, I did a full day's work before 9:00 in the morning, before I went to work. And I came home at 2:00 and waited for my kids to come home, make sure homework and everything was done. And I was a member of 107. And for some reason or another, I don't know why -- We had a garment -- I worked piecework. I didn't get paid by the hour. I got paid by the piece. And there was a dress I was working on that I didn't think was paid fairly. And I spoke to the boss about it. And I told him why I didn't think I was being paid fairly. Because my sister was very knowledgeable, because she was in the industry -- worked as a machine operator for years. So I called her and spoke to her. And I said, you know, "I'm making this garment," and I described it. And she goes, "Well, this is two cents. That's one penny," whatever. So I went back the next day and told the employer, "You know, you're not paying us fairly." He's, "Why you say that." And I told him. "This is the reason." I said, "I'm going to call the union and see if I can get a price chart," because they usually had those, "and break the garment down." So I succeeded in getting the garment raised -- the price raised on that garment. So everybody was thrilled to death, and they asked me to be on the Price Committee. So I said, "OK." I was one of three members on a price committee. And we'd go in ever time there was a new garment and we'd sit and talk to the boss-- We didn't argue with them. We just talked to him. And he would either see it our way or we would see it his. It was a-- it was a quid pro quo, basically.

Soyer:

It was the price committee for that shop or --?

Laufman:

For that shop.

Soyer:

Yeah.

Laufman:

Just for that shop. And --

Soyer:

What shop was it?

Laufman:

The name of the shop was Vin-Al, at the time. Would you believe that, I would remember that all these years? It's incredible. One was Vin, one was Al.

Soyer:

(laughs) And where was it?

Laufman:

In Long Island, on Long Island Avenue, in Deer Park, right alongside of the -- right alongside of the railroad tracks. The train ran here. In fact, it was over here. And I did that for a while. And then the chairlady left, for some reason or another. She was sick. She was out. I don't remember exactly. And we didn't have a shop steward, chairlady. So they asked me if I would do it. And I said, "No," you know, "She's going to come back." And they said, "Well, until she comes back." So that's what happened. I became the shop steward. And when she came back, she was thrilled, because she didn't want the position anyway, because everybody used to fight with her. And they used to fight with me but I used to be able to stop it, you know, use logic with them.

Soyer:

And so "they," you mean the -- the bosses or the --?

Laufman:

No, the -- the -- with both, you know --

Soyer:

The workers.

Laufman:

-- the bosses and the workers, you know. Sometimes the workers were unreasonable, you know, like workers can be. And they would say they wanted -- well, they wanted 40 cents for something and it was only worth 30. I said, "How can we ask for 40?" You know, when something is worth 40 and they want to give us 30 again, then what are we going to do? You know, you can't do that. I said, "You have to pick your argument, so you could win." You know? So they went along with me on that, because I just made -- I guess I made sense. I'm not so sure I did but I guess they thought I did. So that was it. And one day --

[10:19]

Soyer:

Were you -- were you elected --

Laufman:

Yes.

Soyer:

-- chairlady by the workers or were you appointed by --

Laufman:

Yeah, well, they hold a shop meeting.

Soyer:

-- the (inaudible)?

Laufman:

By -- the union holds a shop meeting. The business agent comes into the shop. The workers say they want to vote me in as chairlady. She holds a small meeting right after work, or he, if -- whoever it is. At the time, it was a he, John DiGiralamo. I later became his boss. Isn't that funny? But he held the meeting and they -- somebody nominated me. And it was seconded. And I was the shop steward. I mean, I wasn't getting paid any more but I was a shop steward. So, as most times with the garment industry, you know, so-- It's feast or famine. There's a lot of work, lot of work, you know, it's a lot of work and then, all of a sudden, there's like - In between seasons it like just comes to a grinding halt.

Soyer:

What were you making, at that time?

Laufman:

Sportswear. I was working in sportswear.

Soyer:

Is that mostly what there was in Long Island or --? I don't think of Long Island as being a big center--

Laufman:

Oh, it was.

Soyer:

Oh, yeah.

Laufman:

Oh, it was. They had a lot of dress shops. They had a lot of sportswear shops. They had a lot of spor-- By sportswear, some shops made blouses, some shops made skirts, some shops made pants. Some made a combination of both. Some made dresses. Some made gowns. There were a lot of shops.

Soyer:

And these were contractors.

Laufman:

These were mostly contractors. They worked for the manufacturers here in Manhattan. So it was -- it was fine, you know. So when the work got slow, inter-season, the manufacturers basically kept the work for what was called an inside shop, which was the manufacturer's shop. They got the work first before anybody else did. So they had slow seasons. And I was home from work this one day. And now I had a woman business agent. And she knocked at my door one day. And I don't know what I was doing with one of my kids. And she said, "Can I speak to you?" And I said, "Sure." I invited her in, just so thoroughly shocked. And she says, "They opened up a factory on the other side of Deer Park Avenue --" also Long Island Avenue, but the other side of Deer Park Avenue, "And it's a sportswear shop. And it's nonunion." She said, "Will you go in there to get a job?" And I said, "No. Why would you ask me to do that?" And she says, "Oh, you'll be covered." You know. "No, no, no. I'm not going to lose my benefits and my union. No way!" So she says, "No, no. You'll be covered." I said, "Let me think about it." So she said, "OK." And she gave me the name of the woman, that she knew, who was a former member of ours, who was the forelady in the shop. She was doing the hiring. And I knew her, personally, very well. She was a very good friend of mine. So I said, "Let me think about it." Because she gave the woman's name. She goes, "Well, you know --" And I don't remember the name, right now. First name was Nancy.

Soyer:

It was -- What was the business agent's name?

Laufman:

Mary -- Mary Ruggiero. I also became her boss. Mary Ruggiero asked me to do this. And the woman who was forelady in the nonunion shop, her name was Nancy, I think, Ferrara. And I said, "Well, let me think about it." So that night, when my husband come home, I was talking to him about it. He goes, "You know, you'd better check to make sure," you know, "You don't want to play with something like that." I said, "OK." So the next day I (laughs) walked myself down to the union office and wanted to speak to the business manager. I didn't have an appointment but that didn't deter me. And I said, "I'd like to speak to the business manager." I -- They said, "About what?" I said, "About a nonunion shop." And he must have heard -- His name was Ed Banyai. And he heard me. He came to the doorway and he saw me. He said, "Come on in." So I went in and sat down. And I told him that Mary Ruggiero was my business agent, that she told me to go apply for this job at this nonunion shop and not to worry, that everything -- as far as the union was concerned, I would be covered by it. And he goes, "Yeah, you will be." And I said, "Well," I said, "they're not going to pay me what I earned in a union shop."

[15:01]

I said, "And I want to be protected, that I don't lose my benefits with the union." He goes, "You'll be protected." And I said, "Put it in -- (laughter) Cool," I said, "Put it in writing." You see, I was always independent. And one of the things I've learned is -- My husband worked hard. He had a very good-paying job -- not as much money as we could use but a good-paying job. And I was independent, you know? If I didn't do it, you know, I wouldn't starve to death. They couldn't stop me from working in the shop, you know, if I refused. So I said, "Put it in writing." And he said, "Fine, I will." So he did. He put it in writing. And I laughed. I didn't laugh at him but when I walked out of his office I went, "Phoo!" So I got it in writing. And the next day I went to apply for the job. And Nancy saw me and she knew me and she goes, "Oh, yeah, Barbara, sure." She gave me the job. So I sat at the machine and I worked. And I found out that the woman on my right -- immediately to my right and the woman in front of me, to my right -- not directly in front of me but -- the right, both of them, their husbands were pressers in union shops. And here they were working in a nonunion shop. And I garnered all of this information -- and not because I was so smart, because now John DiGiralamo came back into the picture. Because if Mary wasn't there, it was John. So John was the one who asked me how to go about getting information. And I did. And the name of the boss was Babe Feingold. And I got a majority of people's names and addresses. You know, like these two people, I knew their first and last name. I gave it to John. I told them that their husbands are pressers and they both worked in the same shops. He had their home addresses automatically. It was that kind of a thing. And they made a demand on the shop, you know. And I wore a union button to work. And the boss -- this boss was hip to everything. You know, he didn't fire me -- didn't fire me. He made my fe miserable. I sat at this machine. He changed me to that machine. Then he brought me over to this machine. I was setting zippers, which is the highest paid job, basically, in a garment factory. Because that's the -- basically the end of making the garment. Took those -- that away from me. So I earned less money. I wore a button that said, "The union for me," "The ILGWU. The union for me." He put up a big sign on the wall with a big smiley face, those big round yellow faces with a big smile on it. He'd come in and sit down at the machine in front of me and sing Italian songs to me -- very well, by the way. Then he'd come in some mornings and bring boxes of doughnuts. And he'd go from machine to machine, to everybody, to get a doughnut. And he'd go, "None for you."

Soyer:

Hm!

Laufman:

At any rate. The shop was organized. It was organized. We were successful. And we had another shop in the union.

Soyer:

So -- so I want to clarify. So when -- when the business agent first came to you, did you understand what the purpose was of going to the shop?

Laufman:

Yeah, to help organize the shop --

Soyer:

Right.

Laufman:

-- to make it a union shop. Yeah. I didn't know how it was going to be done. But he tripped me every step of the way, you know, very carefully, every step of the way. You know, if you're going -- you have to be very careful. You know, you just can't come over and say, "Well, you know, if your husband's union, why are you working here?" You know? I had to gather their conf-- gain their confidence and get their names and add-- names, basically, so they could look up information -- things like that. You know, it was done -- I wasn't doing anything terrible. I was helping to better their wages, basically. They'd have ho-- they didn't have holidays. They weren't getting paid extra money. They weren't getting paid, you know, what the garment was worth, plus percentages. None of that. You know, none of that. They --

Soyer:

But what about physical conditions in the shop?

[19:41]

Laufman:

The physical conditions in the shop were never really good. You know, most employers basically don't give a damn about the workers, you know. They have a restroom. They very seldom have a maintenance person coming in to clean it. If the people themselves don't keep it clean, you know -- And even though the people who work there try to keep it clean, you know, when you had like 25 or 30 people going into one bathroom, it -- just not right. So they don't care. So that also gets to improve, you know? When it's very, very hot, you know, the boss won't put on the fans, because it's too expensive. He wouldn't put in air conditioning. It was a whole -- whole bevy of things that we were able to improve upon, once we got the union in -- I mean, not all at one time. Don't think we waved a magic wand and it was done. But we managed to get quite a few things.

Soyer:

So did you get the workers -- was there an election in the shop or --?

Laufman:

There was -- most of the workers -- You know, John would visit them at home. They would sign authorization cards. Once he had a majority of the people in the factory who signed authorization cards that wanted the union, then he would go in and make a demand for union recognition. And the boss would either say yea or nay. And if he said nay, then we would have to proceed whichever way we could. So it just so happened the boss didn't fire me, even though I was wearing the union button, which would be one way of, you know, provoking him. But he tried to demean me, you know, in ways that were really, really insulting, by singing songs to me, you know, and then making fun of me while I was sitting there, trying to distract me, by making fun of my button, which was legal and legitimate, by offering everybody else doughnuts and not one to me, by taking the work away from me that I was doing, you know, so I would make less money, forcing me to basically make a decision, you know, stay there and keep taking his junk or quit. But I went home every day -- I was like, you know, wound so tight. And I said, to John, "John, you know, this is ridiculous. I can't keep -- keep putting up with this," you know, "because I'm getting --" you know, "I have to be in there early." Because now I was working full days, you know. This is -- Well, I went to work at 9:00 and left at 2:00. Now I was working from 9:00 to 3:30. And the half hour I had for lunch was like not enough time for me to call home to make sure my other kids were OK, the ones who weren't in school all day. I was really wound tight. And don't forget, Daniel, back when this was happening, you know, women weren't as liberated as they are today. You know, I still had to go home and cook and clean. And my husband was wonderful. You know? But he didn't get home until 6:30, 7:00 at night, so I couldn't expect him to come home and start cooking, you know? And you tried to teach your children, when they're young, you know, the basics, you know, eat right, you know, go to sleep on time, and -- And I didn't want that to change, you know? So I had a lot of that responsibility. And -- At any rate. Told John that he took the work away from me. He goes, "And what'd he do?" And I told him. I said, "I made like $30 less this week just because he took the work away from me." And he gave it to somebody else, you know. And so John -- It was a -- basically turned out to be an unfair labor practice, you know. So we went out on strike. And it was the funniest thing you'd ever want to (laughs) see. Because the shop was on the corner. Deer Park Avenue is here and the shop -- The street curved around and just at the curve was where the shop was. When you got to the corner and went this way, it was the senior high school. So the school buses, when they picked the kids up, would make that turnaround. And I would be on strike with a sign and my kids would go by and I -- "Hey, Ma!"

Soyer:

(laughs)

Laufman:

You know? Everybody knew, you know, Mrs. Laufman was out on strike. It was funny. It really was fu-- I look back at those days and I laugh. At any rate.

Soyer:

Did you have support in the community? Were a lot of them --?

Laufman:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we had a lot of support. We had a lot of support in the community. And it was fun, because, you know, my kids yelling from the school bus and then, of course, the parents, you know, I -- we knew all the parents. So there was support. You know, they all lived there. Their kids all went to school there. They all shopped there. So there was a lot of support in the community. Yeah, it was -- it was a good time, you know? Froze my butt off, because it was in February, but it was a good time.

Soyer:

Did -- did you get strike benefits from the union?

Laufman:

Yes. I'm trying to remember that. Yes, I did. Everybody got strike benefits -- a paltry sum.

Soyer:

Yeah.

[24:58]

Laufman:

I mean, it wasn't enough to -- it wasn't enough to buy one shoe, today. Let me put it to you that way. But at any rate, that was done. It was over. They had a meeting at the office. You know, I had to come to the union office. And they had the attorney speak to me. And I gave depositions. And the lawyer, Barry -- his -- his first name was Barry -- he kept saying, "You got such total recall." I said, "Yeah, my husband tells me that all the time." (laughter) Wasn't happy about it. But anyway, it was fun, yeah.

Soyer:

Who -- was your mother watching your children while you --

Laufman:

Well, my children --

Soyer:

-- after --?

Laufman:

-- were in school during the day. The younger ones were watched by my sister, who lived next door -- which was really a boon, you know, because, when they went to kindergarten, when they came home, you know -- Well, the younger one was only 2-1/2, 3, maybe, at this time. But the second from the youngest -- I have five children. So the second from the youngest was in kindergarten. You know, it was just one of those -- it was a progression up the line. So we then won the -- We didn't have to go to court. You know, we didn't have to go before the board -- and – and the National Labor Relations Board. The employer, you know, with whatever -- he decided, OK, he's going to become union, and we had a union shop. Years later, like he had another shop. I was his business agent. And he always told about, "You remember when I used to sing to you?" And, "Yeah, I remember, Bur-- Dave. I remember." So at any rate. Went to the office one day. I was called to the office one day, and then they wanted to speak to me. I went into the office. And he said to me, "How would you like a job with the union?" Like I said before, I was always very independent. I said, "Doing what?" He said, "Well, basically, starting off doing exactly what you just did." I said, "Oh, I'll be working for the union but I'll be working in a factory at the same time?" And he said, "Yeah. But you'll be getting benefits," you know, "You'll be paid every week, whether you earn the money or not," you know, "over there." And he said, "If you -- if you agree to it, let's try it out for six months," he said, "And if I don't think you can do it, in six months, I'll tell you." And I quickly shot back that, "If I don't like it, in six months, I'm telling you!" And he told that story (laughter) many, many times. I just -- I had more brass than brains, sometimes. But at any rate, that's how I got started.

Soyer:

It sounds like why they hired you.

Laufman:

Probably. And that's what I did. I got a job with the union. And I was now officially a union representative. I didn't represent the workers, at the time. Well, I did, indirectly, by going in, organizing nonunion shops, you know.

Soyer:

Is this what they meant by --? I saw -- In the biographical file, you know, and there's a couple clippings. So they said you started as a colonizer.

Laufman:

That's what they called a colonizer.

Soyer:

This -- this is what it was, a colonizer.

Laufman:

Right. Yeah. That's what they call a colonizer. So I colonized and then organized. And it was fun. I had a good time doing it. I then -- as an organizer, I was the organizer -- I wor-- I asked other people that I knew who worked in factories if they would go work in nonunion shops and -- did the same exact thing that I did. Sometimes I worked in the shops with them, you know. And the employer did not know like I was union and that one was union. You know, we just -- Until the time came for us to do what we had to do. And we had -- you know, you have to talk to these people. A lot of people are just afraid and they don't know what their rights are, what they're -- what they're entitled to as a worker. You know? And --

Soyer:

Well, most -- at that -- it sounded like most of them were Italian at the time or --?

Laufman:

Well --

Soyer:

This was a little later.

Laufman:

-- in Local 89, yes. That was -- that was it. You know, during the -- during the Second World War they had locals split up by ethnic background.

Soyer:

Yeah.

Laufman:

In 1947, when the Taft-Hartley Act came into existence, that was outlawed. So you no longer kept them by Italians in Local 89 and everybody else and the kitchen sink in Local 22-1 or whatever the case may be. And I -- I thought that was right. I thought that was fair, equitable. I mean, some people just didn't like the idea but, hey, that's too bad.

[29:59]

Soyer:

How did you end up in Local 89?

Laufman:

I originally started out as Local 89, when I worked in the factories. And then, when I became manager of the Local 89?

Soyer:

Right. Well, no. Well, I mean, actually when you first joined --

Laufman:

I was Italian.

Soyer:

Just because you were Italian --

Laufman:

Yeah.

Soyer:

-- so you were assigned to it.

Laufman:

It was automatic. If I was Jewish, they would have put me -- in the same factory, in the same city, at the same sewing machine -- they would have put me in Local 22. Just -- just an amazing thing, to me. But that's how we got started. And I went to work with my sister. Her name was Lombardo, you know, née -- Randazzo -- Lombardo, née Randazzo. And I went in and I was Barbara Randazzo, which was my maiden name. And I was just automatically put into Local 89. And I think -- No, I don't. I was going to say, "I think I still have my union book in Local 89," but I don't. But at any rate. But that was how I got started. So I went to work. And then, when I was working for the Local 107, Ed Banyai gave me different responsibilities. After I did a lot of organizing, he said it was time to take me out of the field, because after a while, you know, if you go to apply for a job in a factory --

Soyer:

And they --

Laufman:

You get known. There's always somebody --

Soyer:

Yeah.

Laufman:

-- where you worked. And I have to tell you, I have friends today that I used to work with in those shops, many, many years ago, they're still friends of mine.

Soyer:

That's --

Laufman:

So he then gave me a job as a business rep, you know, going into the factories, representing workers. And he gave me a few shops where there were no trouble spots. You know, there's always a tr-- one or two shops that are trouble spots. He gave me shops, at first, without any trouble spots. But then he would ask me to go along with one of the other business agents, when they went to one of their shops, so I could learn different methods of servicing. You know, everybody has their own little thing to put on something when they do it. And I went and I listened and I learned. And I was introduced. (laughs) And that's how I got to be a business agent. And then Ed Banyai --

Soyer:

How -- how many business agents were there?

Laufman:

There was Clara Radigan. There was Mary Ruggiero. There was John DiGiralamo. There was me. There was Mike Grimaldi. No, Mike Grimaldi was still an organizer, at that time. Sal Rotundi. Wow! I'm dredging up names from the year dot. But they were all there -- there. Ed Banyai then -- I really don't know what happened. I knew something happened, and I wasn't privy to what it was. And he left.

Soyer:

Can you tell me something about him, in general?

Laufman:

Ed Banyai was a union man from the tip of his toes to the top of his head. He had a way of doing things that you and I or a lot of other people would not necessarily agree with. But he got things accomplished. He worked for the union, at one time, and I understand he left. And when he left, he went to live in Israel for a while. And then he came back. And when he left again, I think he went to live in Israel again. Now I heard, I don't know -- I'm sure it happened, because I've heard this story a million times. He was organizing a -- This is before I got there. He was organizing a factory someplace and the owner was very nasty, I understand -- I understood, from what I was told. And Ed Banyai was getting anywhere -- and nowhere with him. So what he decided to do, he picketed this guy at the temple --

Soyer:

Mm. Hm!

Laufman:

-- on Yom Kippur -- which was a no-no.

Soyer:

Yeah.

[34:45]

Laufman:

But Ed Banyai did things like that. That's the way he was. And, of course, when I got there, you know, having -- having been new, a novice, completely -- and not afraid -- I mean, I didn't care who you were or where you came from. If I thought you deserved to be told off, I did. I mean, I just did. And I guess he liked that, you know? Because I just didn't put up with -- A lot of the people -- a lot of the business agents were afraid to talk to him. You know, if he said, "Up," they said, "How high?" you know. And when I went in, I wouldn't do that. You know? And I started to work for the union in 1972, I think it was, if I'm correct. Am I right?

Soyer:

That's what it says on the paper.

Laufman:

Wow!

Soyer:

(laughs)

Laufman:

Three years later -- three years later, in December of 1975, my husband, who was never sick a day in his life, had two major surgeries in five days. And I was like beside myself, you know. They operated on him and then a blood clot escaped and five days later they brought him back in. They told me, if it took anything more than four hours, don't expect him to come out alive. It took six hours. They basically sent him home to die, on Christmas Day of that year. And he lived. He lived. I mean, he's alive. Because I said to him, "Don't you dare die. I'll kill you," something like that. At any rate. I did not spend as much time as I should have concentrating on what I was doing, as far as my work was concerned. Yet it did not suffer, because I did what I was supposed to do and still was able to spend time at home with my husband. And Ed Banyai never, ever said a word to me, never called me up to say, "You didn't do this," or, "You didn't do that." Because I did what I was supposed to do, got it accomplished and he knew it. Because he kept tabs on you. He really did. Not because he didn't trust you. Or maybe that's the reason. I don't know. But he -- he just did things. He was very -- he was very, very good to me, as far as -- as I was concerned. He would come into the office on a Friday afternoon -- Friday morning and he'd say, "We're having a meeting this afternoon at 4:30, 5:00." You know, we got used to those, after a while. OK, so at 4:30, 5:00 we all got in the office. Ed was not there. You know, we'd all be sitting in the office. And he'd walk in about 5:30, quarter to 6:00. And we'd sit there and he'd talk about nothing at all. Then all of a sudden he says, "Tomorrow morning we're going out in a group and we're going to visit this factory, this factory, this factory, and this factory. And if they're working and they didn't ask for permission," violation of the contract. And they haven't punched their timecards, another violation of the contract. So he did that, because he didn't want any information being disseminated before he got there. And, you know, we all had to get up at the crack of dawn (laughter) on a Saturday mor-- And we did it. And it worked. Employers did not work on Saturdays, unless they asked permission. And they always paid their people time-and-a-half, because they made their people -- just because he did things like that. So he really was good. I mean, that's what I think. He was good for the members. At any rate. He left. And Local 129, which was basically a coat local, was located in Massapequa Park. Business -- there -- manager there was Mike Bachrach. And the powers that be did not want to make another business manager at the Local 107. So what they did was they formed the Nassau-Suffolk District Council. And Mike Bachrach was the be-all, end-all Pooh-Bah for both offices, on in Bay Shore, 107, one Nassau County 129. And Mike Bachrach went back and forth. They made John DiGiralamo the assistant manager to Mike Bachrach. So he moved over to Nassau County. And they made me the assistant manager to 107 -- which I was surprised about -- you know? -- because Mary Ruggiero was there before I was, Clara Radigan was there before I was. But she was getting to retire, Clara. Gabby Sciacca was there before I was. Yeah, why me? But -- I didn't ask for it but they gave it to me.

[40:19]

Soyer:

Who do you think made the decision?

Laufman:

I think it was Sol Goldberg. I think it was Sol Goldberg, who was the vice president, at the time, in charge of the New York State District, which is the umbrella under which we were. And Ed Banyai very well may have recommended me. I can only assume that's what happened. But, you know, he was leaving. Why would anybody listen to him? But evidently, they did. And that's the only why, I believe, I was asked to be the assistant manager of Local 107 -- the manager of 107. I'm sorry. I was the manager of 107. John DiGiralamo became the manager of 129. And Mike Bachrach was the district manager for the Nassau-Suffolk District Council. That's the way it worked. So then were going through e-- you know, economic times were really bad. They decided to close the office down in Bay Shore. So we all relocated over to Nassau County. So 107, 129, and sometimes 155 did business in that office. So Bachrach and John DiGiralamo were at this end and I was at this end, with business agents from 107, one, two, and 129 business agents over there, two or three. And then your organizers there and whatnot. So. That's where we were.

Soyer:

What -- so what does an assistant manager do? What does the ma-- what does the manager do? How does it differ from being a business agent?

Laufman:

A business agent goes to the shop and services the shops, to make sure the contracts are enforced. The managers oversee --

Soyer:

You spend -- so when you're a business agent you spend most of your time moving around the shops?

Laufman:

Yeah, from shop to shop. Yeah. You'd go from shop to shop.

Soyer:

How often -- how often do you visit each shop?

Laufman:

That's a variable, according to the business agent. I used to get around to my shops at least once every two weeks, when I was servicing. And that was because I must have had something like 42 shops at the time. So, you know, you could just see so many shops in one day before you don't get the gist of what's going on. So I used to get out early in the morning. I used to be in the shop at -- first shop at 8:00 in the morning. And, you know, if you go in, if people have a complaint, usually, you'll learn after a while. You know, I did. You know, "How's everything going?" "Oh, good." You know, the boss is standing there on the floor watching the whole situation. "Oh, good." "Everything fine?" "Yeah, fine." "You punching your cards?" "Oh, yeah." Nobody have a complaint. Doesn't make sense. I worked in the shops. I know what it's like. So then what I started to do, I started my own routine. I'd go into the shop. I'd be there first thing in the morning, one shop, and I'd walk around. "Hi, how are you?" you know, "How's Mary?" "How's Joan?" "How's," whatever, just carrying on silly conversation. And I -- then I'd say, "How's everything going?" very quietly. And then they'd say, "Not too good. You've got to check this." "OK." You know. And then I would find out what was going on in the shop. The bosses never understood how I got the information, because they were always -- It isn't as though they were -- Yeah, they were. They were spying on us. But I got the information, because people learned to trust me, you know. And that's the one thing -- when I said I'd show up, I'd show up. When I said I was going to do something, I did it. And if I said I was going to do something and didn't do it, I went back to them and told them I didn't do it because --

Soyer:

Do you think it helped that you had worked in the shops?

Laufman:

Oh, yeah, many times.

Soyer:

-- did a lot of -- most of the business agents, were they former shop workers or not?

Laufman:

The ones that served me at -- with me at the time, yes, they were. And that made for better representatives. Because, you know, a lot of people say -- Oh, I shouldn't say that. I should phrase it differently. Sometimes people say, when you start out here and get to here, you forget, when you're up here, what it was like down here.

[45:02]

I never had that experience, just because I never thought I was there, you know. I always felt I was a worker. Regardless of where I was, I was always a worker. And, you know, I -- I want to reinforce that. I have friends that I used to -- used to work alongside of in the factory that I'm still friends with, after all these years, because of the fact that they knew me as a person. You know? I was not this vice president or, you know, this big "mahoffa." I was me. I was Barbara. And I really appreciate that. So at any rate, going from there -- Stop me any time you want.

Soyer:

Do you think it helped that you were a woman? Were most of the workers women?

Laufman:

In the garment factories, absolutely.

Soyer:

Are --

Laufman:

The only ones who were men were the cutters --

Soyer:

We--

Laufman:

-- and the pressers. And they were God and Moses.

Soyer:

And for --

Laufman:

I mean, I shouldn't be sacrilegious, to say that but that's what they were. That's what it was. The pressers thought they were God's gift to everybody. And the cutters were even worse. They always made more money than the women did. They cut the garment. That was it. They were finished. They'd press a garment. They'd put it on the hangar. That's it. They were finished. The women worked on the machines and really had to put the whole thing together. And they never got the credit for it. They never got paid as much as they should have gotten paid for it. And that was sad. But a lot of people, until today, felt, at the time, that when a women went to work it was a secondary thing. It was -- she didn't have to support a household, you know? Her husband was doing that. She went to work because she wanted to buy a powder puff or a lipstick or a -- some nonsensical thing. And it took a lot to change that concept, a lot.

Soyer:

I've read quotes from some of the top leaders in the union, I mean, maybe even Dubinsky, people saying, "Well, you know, the women --"

Laufman:

That was Dubinsky.

Soyer:

"-- they're not permanent. They're temporary."

Laufman:

That was Dubinsky. Yeah. And I've heard stories. I didn't work for Dubinsky. I mean, I worked for him --

Soyer:

As a worker, right.

Laufman:

-- as a worker but -- But I understand there were times when he gave out raises, he would give raises to the men, not to the women. Because women didn't need it, because their husbands supported them. Which I thought was terrible! But, you know, that was the logic. And that was the stigma that was attached to women in the garment industry, a very long time.

Soyer:

Do you think if affected your career in the union? Was there any -- ever any point where you had a feeling, well, they're not moving you up, you know, to a higher position?

Laufman:

My rise in the union was meteoric --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Laufman:

-- I mean, absolutely meteoric. I was in the right place at the right time, when women started coming into their own. I was smart enough to be there and I was smart enough to keep the position. Was I treated fairly all the time? No. I have to be candid with you. I know there were times when -- times were different. You know? There are, until today, and I'm sure you must run into them every once in a while, men who do not feel that women are equal to them nor can they do a job as well as they can. And I've always thought that was absolutely insane, that women, hundreds of thousands of women who worked in the garment industry, would allow a handful of men to tell them what was good for them -- which is exactly what -- what happened. You know? Dubinsky did wonders. He did wonders for the garment industry. He really did. But the women themselves never really profited from it. I mean, I shouldn't say it that way. I mean, they got holidays. They got vacation. They got health coverage. Yeah, they did benefit, but not in the same sense as women in other industries did. And yet our industry was 95% women. And yet there were no women in the upper echelon, for a long, long time, long, long time. They had -- woman -- one woman in there, whose name escapes me right now. I can't remember her name. It was before my time.

[50:00]

But she was there. Then they brought in another woman in California, a black woman named Mattie Jackson. So she was there, out in California. But she was in the San Francisco office. But the San Francisco office was tied into the Los Angeles office and the guy who was in charge of the Los Angeles office, Cornelius Hall, was in charge of the San Francisco office. They brought in -- God! I remember years ago. I can't remember now. Evie Dubrow. I mean, Evie Dubrow is priceless, I mean, just priceless. Dubinsky brought her in. And that was a very smart move on his behalf. Evie Dubrow, I don't think anybody could match her, in any way, shape, size, or form. The only difference is she never worked in a factory. But Evie Dubrow knew how it felt to work for a living. Then they brought in this other woman from -- Lillian Kolwyck. You know, noises were being made all over the place, quietly. Noises were being made. And they brought in Lillian Kolwyck and they made her a vice president, down in Tennessee. But that was the Southern District. And Nick Bonnano, who I love dearly, was in charge of the Southern District. So she was answerable to him.

Soyer:

Mmm hmm. There was alway-- there was always some man who was --

Laufman:

Always.

SOYER: -- all the --

Laufman:

Always. Then there was the New York State District, you know. And Sol Goldberg was in charge of the New York State District. And Sol Goldberg was the reason I got to be manager of 107. And I said I think it was Ed Banyai that might have done that. And Sal Giardina was the assistant director of New York State District. Ed Kramer was the vice president in charge of the New Jersey Region. And he left -- resigned -- retired -- retired. Sol Goldberg went over to New Jersey. And Sal Giardina now became director of New York State District. And they made John DiGiralamo, who was the manager of 129, they made him the district manager of Nassau-Suffolk District Council. And they brought me into Manhattan to work as the assistant director to Sal Giardina. And I worked for Sal Giardina, who was an absolute prince. And then I was Director of Organizing. I was the assistant director. And then, when Sal Giardina went over to New Jersey, when Sol Goldberg retired, I was now New York State District. And I was in charge of New York State District with nobody over my head. I mean, I was in charge of the New York State District. When Byer -- Sam Byer -- who was in charge of Local 89 -- And they had merged the locals then. 89/22-1 was all one group. Sam Byer was in charge of that group. And he was getting ready to retire. And Jay Mazur was the looking for somebody to put in his position. And nobody knew who was going to get it. I mean, he had an assistant -- Byer -- named Tony Claudino -- And I was in Jay Mazur's office one day. We were talking about something, I don't know what. And I said, "Well, how come you never considered me for that?" kidding around, you know, really kidding around. (coughs) After I said, I didn't believe I did that. "How come you never considered me for Byer's spot?" -- you know? -- "I'm a woman. I'm Italian." And he looked at me. He goes, "You're kidding, aren't you?" And I want, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm kidding," you know. And evidently I put this burr under his saddle, you know? Because he -- the more he thought about it, the more he liked it. But I have to tell you a very funny story about that. My name is Barbara Laufman. And I'm very proud of my name.

[54:51]

And yet the assistant manager, Tony Claudino was very upset -- auh! -- very upset that I was being considered for that job, because he thought it was his. And there started to -- I don't know how the rumor got started. But somewhere the rumor got started that they're bringing in another Jewish person to take over the Italian -- you know, the Italian local. It wasn't the Italian local any more but, you know, concepts are very hard to die.

Soyer:

Just -- So.

(knock on the door)

Laufman:

Yes?

Soyer:

Yeah.

Gable:

Open up or I'll blow the door down!

Laufman:

Oh. And -- How are you?

Gable:

I though what happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas.

Laufman:

Not me. (laughs)

Gable:

Well, it's good to hear --

Laufman:

How are you?

Gable:

-- see you. I've been trying to reach you.

Laufman:

Do you know this gentleman?

Soyer:

No.

Gable:

I know the --

Laufman:

Daniel Soyer.

Gable:

Hi, Lenny Gable. I'm -- Oh, the interview! Is that what you said?

Soyer:

Yeah.

Laufman:

Yeah.

Soyer:

This is what it is.

Gable:

Sorry to interrupt.

Laufman:

That's OK. You can interrupt me any time.

Gable:

How you doing?

Laufman:

I'm doing good. You look good!

Gable:

You going to be around a while after the interview?

Laufman:

Yes. Why, you going to take me out?

Gable:

You're not telling him everything, are you? Yeah.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Laufman:

He's my boyfriend. (laughs)

Gable:

There it goes.

[56:15]

END OF AUDIO FILE 1

[00:00]

Gable:

(laughs) Can see Lehman shaking.

Laufman:

Yeah, yeah.

Gable:

Well, how long are you going to be? Have any idea?

Laufman:

I don't know.

Soyer:

It's --

Laufman:

I'm -- I'm telling him my histories. I may be about a half a day.

Gable:

It's a long life.

Laufman:

(laughs) Am I on again?

Soyer:

Yeah, you're on again. I actually couldn't figure out how to turn that one off, so (laughs) --

Laufman:

Oh.

Soyer:

-- that whole thing was recorded. And I don't know what's going --

Laufman:

I even forgot where I was. Oh. So somehow or another a rumor got started that there was -- they're bringing in somebody else. It's not a -- an Italian -- you know, the Italian local. And I knew that was going around, you know. I was already made the associate manager of Local 89. That was already there. They brought me from this building up to two-for-- up to 40th Street. So I had moved my district. New York State District was up there. Then it was going to be merged into 89. And I just -- you know, I'd go out with -- I was doing that. I was going out -- I still did that, by the way. I forgot to tell you that. Because of what position I held, I always went out with the business agents - into the shops. I didn't announce it ahead of time. I learned that from Ed Banyai. They would come into the office -- say, "Oh, where you --?" I'd say, "Where you going today? Is it OK if I ride along with you?" And I'd go with them -- just to see what was going on. So when I went around to shops with various business agents, I could sense this, this unrest. You know, it really got to me. So we were holding these health fairs in Pennsylvania. And we had this major health fair. And there must have been about 200 or 300 members that were there. And Ed Banyai got up and spoke. And, you know, all of the office was -- officers were sitting at the da-- on the dais, at the desk. He got up and spoke. And somebody else spoke. And then he said, "Well, now I want to introduce you to the associate manager of the Local 89. And when I retire, she will be taking over for me." You could hear a pin drop -- a pin. And I got up to speak and I looked out at the crowd and I said, "You know, you don't know me but let me tell you, my name is Barbara Laufman. I'm married. I have five children, X amount of grandchildren." I said, "And there's a rumor going around that I'm not Italian. Well, I'm not. I'm Sicilian." Well, the crowd broke up. I mean, the applause was amazing. Because I loosened them all up. And from that time on, I never had a problem with any of the members from Local 89. It was wonderful. It was just really wonderful. And my husband said, "How'd you do that?" I said, "I've been conning you for years," you know, "so this was easy." (laughs) But I did, I had a great time. And I became a vice p-- I was a vice president already, by the way, before I took over 89. I was a manager. I was made a vice president when I was manager of the Local -- the New York State District. So it was easy -- it was easier, because they put me in charge of 89, merged my district into 89. I was already a vice president, so they didn't have to make another vice president. You know, they were ha-- they were getting to the point where they had too many. And -- Did I get along well with all my colleagues? No. And only one -- and I won't name that one -- but only one, out of everybody I worked with, disrespected me -- verbally. And I still have very bad feelings about it. I really do. Because it wasn't warranted. It wasn't deserved. And because of that person's position, I couldn't retaliate the way I wanted to. I did. Don't -- don't think for one minute I kept my mouth shut. But that basically made up my mind that, when the time came for me -- And I went out -- I love my job. I loved what I did. I did. I loved what I did. I thought I was good at it. I thought I was successful at it. But when they knock the legs out from underneath you -- you know? -- and you don't have recourse -- You know, it's like Don Quixote, you know? So I said, "OK, it's time for me to go." And I did.

Soyer:

Did you have --

Laufman:

He --

Soyer:

OK, we'll get back to that. So how about relationships --? You worked with the -- when you were on the staff, Stulberg was still president? Or you --?

[05:03]

Laufman:

Stulberg.

Soyer:

Yeah. They --

Laufman:

No. Stulberg --

Soyer:

Had left.

Laufman:

-- had just left.

Soyer:

Right.

Laufman:

Chaikin was the president. Chaikin was an amazing human being. He really was an amazing human being, very, very -- very, very -- exceptionally intelligent. I used to get a kick out of him. I used to listen to him speaking. He used to use these 25-cent words, you know. And I -- and I'd cringe. And then I'd go home and look it up, just so I know what they meant. I mean, I could -- I got the gist of it but I just -- And I thought he was an amazing person to listen to. Of course, he could drone on for like seven or eight days but -- which was one of the things that he loved to do -- which was fine. And now I find I'm doing, myself -- same thing myself. But I liked him. I thought he -- And he was the one who -- during his regime, that I became vice president. I became vice president at the same time Jay Mazur ascended to the presidency, that same convention.

Soyer:

So you talked about your work as a business agent. You didn't talk that much about your work -- what it was like, day to day, let's say, as a manager and later as the manager of the region and so on.

Laufman:

As a manager and -- as a manager, basically what I did was oversee the business agents to make sure their jobs were done properly, that they were representing the union in a very good light when they went into the factories, that they were representing the union -- the union in a good light, in the sense of representing the workers fairly and adequately, and, if there were problems that they couldn't solve or didn't think they could solve, to bring them back to the office. And we used to kick them around. I didn't -- I wasn't a be-all, end-all. They couldn't come to me and say, "Mary Jones is going to jump out of the window. How would you stop her?" You know, they would -- we would do this on an average of twice a week. You know, we'd have these round-robin sessions, where we'd all sit down. And, you know, you got shops eight to 16. You know, what's going on in them? And we'd go around the table like that. And, you know, maybe you should do this or maybe you should do that. And that's what we did. And that's how we got problems solved. That was as a manager. When you're manager of the Local 89, it's just the same thing but larger. You know, you've got more areas to cover, more people to oversee. You negotiate contracts. You very seldom negotiate contracts in the smaller areas, because most of the manuf-- all the contracts are manu-- are negotiated with the manufacturers. And that's done on a -- What's the word I'm looking for? You know, we negotiate with the --

Soyer:

And if you --

Laufman:

-- associations --

Soyer:

Right. Unh huh.

Laufman:

-- you know? So that's the way it's done. What's the word I'm looking for?

Soyer:

Industry?

Laufman:

Industry-wide. Thank you, very much. And that's what we did. You know, we'd sit in. And, of course, the president of the union was involved in it also. And you'd have all of the major -- the major parties to the contract negotiations all in one room or whatever the case may be. And it was interesting. You know, we did that. And it worked out fine. All I did was, when the contracts were finally negotiated, you know, then you had to put it to paper, you know, pen to paper. And this way, it was -- And then you had to check it and make sure that what was done was said and the numbers that were quoted are there and they're accurate. You know? And then, when you're finished with that, you got the contract signed. And then you'd distribute these contracts. You know, we'd distribute them to the shop stewards. And then -- You know, originally, because we really didn't have -- You didn't print up 4,000 copies all at one time. So we got them out to the people that required them right away and then, little by little, we got them out to everybody else. Anybody that walked in and asked for a copy of the contract, you know, they were handed it. And when I was manager of Local 89, over here on 40th Street, it was really quite funny. You know, I'd be in the office with somebody. I don't even know who somebody was. But I would be in the office with somebody and then I'd have to leave to go to the ladies' room. And I'd go out the hall and run down -- As I'm running down the hall, there would be a member coming out of the elevator, saying, "Barbara, I want to talk to you."

[10:00]

It was, "Come with me." You know? And by the time I got back to my office, I had gotten the problem solved, you know, or mostly solved. And people were not afraid to do that with me. They used to come in to talk with me all the time. And it was nice. It was absolutely wonderful. At the conventions -- I loved it. I loved it. I would get -- they would -- I would get up on the podium to speak, you know, as chair of one of the various committees and I would get a standing ovation.

Soyer:

Hm!

Laufman:

In fact, one time -- Really annoyed me. One time Jay Mazur said to me, "Even the floors can be not --" How'd he say it? I forget the way he said. I forget the exact words. But it was something to the effect that even something that was so spontaneous could have been orchestrated.

Soyer:

(laughs)

Laufman:

That's the way -- And I looked at him and I went --

Soyer:

What do you think he meant by that?

Laufman:

I --

Soyer:

What was he trying to tell you?

Laufman:

Can you go off the record?

Soyer:

Sure. Let me --

Laufman:

OK.

Soyer:

Later, we'll get back to it.

Laufman:

OK.

Soyer:

I'm not sure --

Laufman:

But that was my life in the union. I mean, they -- I think I've covered as much as I could and delved into as much as you needed.

Soyer:

Well, you know, this is -- I'm interested in like more details, actually.

Laufman:

In what sense?

Soyer:

Well, for example, so you just were taking about contracts negotiated with the associations at an industry-wide level. Then they'd have to be enforced on the contracting shops.

Laufman:

Right.

Soyer:

So I was -- when I was preparing for this, I Googled -- I was, you know, Googling -- I Googled 107. So one thing that came up, of the few things that came up, was a -- I guess it was a case before the NLRB or something like this, from -- I think it was a little bit before your time, actually. But the problem there was there was a shop in Long Island. So the union was trying to organize it. And it was a shop -- you know, it was an Italian name that began with an A but I can't remember. But so the -- the owner says, "Well, I'll be happy to be a union shop, as long as you get me work from a union jobber. But I can't be a union shop and pay union wages if I don't get work from a union jobber, which is -- because they're paying me lower." You know? So I'm just wondering how often you ran into that kind of situation and how you would deal with contractors who are telling you, "Well, I'm getting this," you know, "so I can't afford to," let's say, "go by the contract."

Laufman:

Well, I have to tell you, in my experience -- in my experience, I never ran into that particular problem. The problem I ran into was -- like the shop I first went into, that I was telling you about, where the boss sang to me. He was getting work from a union jobber. And he was nonunion. So I ran into that more often -- all the time, rather. I never ran into a situation like that. But if that were the situation, you know, where he was getting work from a nonunion jobber and he was nonunion, well, that wasn't our responsibility. Our responsibility was trying to make the workers union, so they would benefit. We weren't worrying about benefiting the employer or benefiting the nonunion manufacturer. If we had a majority of the workers who authorize us to represent them, well, then we would do exactly that. And if the employer says, "Well, my jobber's nonunion," and we'd say, "Fine. But we represent these workers. So either you have to negotiate with us, independently of your non-- or we'll go to your nonunion jobber," you know? And we had the right to picket him, the nonunion jobber now, because we represented those workers. And the employer that they worked for was not negotiating with us. So the nonunion jobber didn't want that to happen, you know. They did not want us picketing them, you know. Because as far as they were concerned -- But sometimes, you know, then we would go to organize them too. You know. We had different -- I was working -- when I was working organizing, I was organizing contracting shops. And the contracting shops that I was organizing mostly worked for union jobbers.

[14:56]

Organizing nonunion jobbers was not in my jurisdiction. You know, it was in the jurisdiction -- You know, we used to kid around a lot, when we were working in -- you know, in the -- in Long Island. They would say -- when something went wrong we would say, "I don't know. You've got to call New York." And then one day I found out I was New York. You know. New York was supposed to have all the answers. But I was New York and didn't have the -- It -- it boggled my mind. Like how did that happen? But --

Soyer:

But so -- but for a -- for union jobber to be contracting out to the nonunion contractors was not in itself a violation of the contract?

Laufman:

Of course it was. Of course it was. But the thing is we would -- sometimes we wouldn't find out until after the fact, you know --

Soyer:

Did the -- the --

Laufman:

-- would have the union jobber under contract. He can only send work to his own shops or any union shops that we have. If he's got such a lot of work, he needs it all done by yesterday, and he's in a dilemma, so, yeah, he might do that. Or he might do that because he can get away with paying less money by doing it that way. So would we know, the day he's doing it? No. We would know when they go to do the audit of the books. And then we would find out that he sent work to jobber A, B, and C -- D, E, and F were not union, you know. Then there was -- according to the contract, there was a penalty that he had to pay. But we would find out about that after the fact. However, having said that, you would -- you would really have to be a dumb-dumb not to realize that the manufacturer is using three nonunion shops repeatedly, year after year, year after year, and not do anything about it. You know? And that was kind of the job that we did on Long Island. You know? Because we would be going into contract shops. So we would find it before they would find it six months later. So, you know, if you worked together, it worked well. And Ed Banyai was -- he was gifted in that area. He really was. And I have to say he taught me well. He really did. He taught me pretty nearly all there is to know about the labor law, or as much a person -- a lay-- a layman can learn about labor law. But I knew enough about it not to get into trouble. You know? I never violated the law in any way. I knew what the contract said and I abided by the contract, the words and the meaning. And sometimes, you know, you would get an employer saying, "Well, you know, it's not so bad." Yeah, it is. Here it is.

Soyer:

So you hear about -- I think -- I was reading, I think, Gus Tyler's book. He --

Laufman:

Wonderful.

Soyer:

Yeah. So he was like there's like two ways of organizing, top-down and bottom-up.

Laufman:

Yeah. Top-down is --

Soyer:

Clearly -- clearly, what you were talking about before, when you first got in, that was bottom-up.

Laufman:

Absolutely.

Soyer:

You were talking to the workers. But another way may be that you've -- you know, you've signed up the jobber and so the workers, you know, are -- You know, how did -- how often did you find, when you were out of staff and organizing New York State, that you used one or the other? Did it change over time?

Laufman:

Most of the work I did in the New York State area, predominantly, which was Long Island and then New York State, skipped the five boroughs of the city and then went on from Westchester up north to Canada, east and west, at that point, they were mostly contracting shops. We did have -- we did have a lingerie manufacturer upstate New York and he had a very -- up in Glens Falls and he had a very large inside factory, very large inside factory. And --

Soyer:

What was the name of the company?

Laufman:

I don't remember. You know. Isn't that funny? I can't remember it. But it was up in Glens Falls. And then he needed to have more work done. And he put it into one of our union shops. And that's how we were able to organize him.

[19:56]

And he was a h-- very -- I mean, big, for upstate New York. I'm not talking about downstate now. I'm talking about upstate New York. When you have a factory of like 150 people in it, that's a lot of people, you know, in a small town like Glens Falls or just outside of Glens Falls, whatever. And we organized his factory. And he fought us tooth and nail. But he's -- he's a nice guy. You know. That was his side. This is our side. And we came --

Soyer:

So how did that go? How did that campaign go?

Laufman:

It went very well. I mean, I didn't work on it specifically. But we had some of the people who worked for New York State, they did most-- Because I just -- you know, I just can't be everywhere -- couldn't be everywhere at one time. So I had people in charge. And they were in charge. And if they ran into a snafu, they would call. And if they didn't, then they would continue going. They all knew what the rules and regulations were. They knew how to do it. We had a bathing suit manufacturer in Port Jervis which was also organized by workers going in like I did, colonizing. And we organized that factory. Then I negotiated a contract with them, years later, as New York State district director. But, you know, most of our work -- most of my work as a colonizer was from the bottom up, not from the top down. Top-down was done by the smart people, here in New York. Us dumb jerks out on the island were not -- We didn't know --

Soyer:

Had a problem --

Laufman:

-- what we were doing. Well, our work was harder, I think, you know. Well, later we had just had to convince one person, you know? On -- when you're -- the bottom up, you have to talk to a lot of people. I mean, I've been bitten by dogs. I can't tell you. I had a poodle attached to my ankle that would not let go. You know? But --

SOYER: This was a --

Laufman:

An or--

Soyer:

-- an owner or from someone you --?

Laufman:

An owner. Yeah, I went to visit them at home, because they were trying to (inaudible). You know? And their dog came out and attached himself to me.

Soyer:

Hm!

Laufman:

But things like that happen, you know. Things like this happened.

Soyer:

What was the biggest success you had organizing?

Laufman:

Cuddle Knit - Cuddle Knit knits, on Grand Boulevard in Deer Park. That firm operated nonunion 30 years. No matter what we said, no matter what we did -- He had a - Cuddle Knit was owned by a man named Ed Kraus, who had two children, Roger and Edward. And Roger ran the factory along with his father and Ed was off doing something else someplace else. I don't know. But the workers who worked there were mostly German immigrants. And there were Italians. There were lots of ethnic groups there. But the majority of them were German immigrants, which really surprised me, because I know in Europe unions are very sanctified, basically. So when they come to this country, that they would fight it, it was like, whoa, how did that happen? You know? But I guess they figure they came to the land of the free, so they don't have to -- they can have their freedom, do whatever they want. So that was a rough one. That was a rough one.

Soyer:

Because it was hard to get the workers on your side?

Laufman:

Yeah, yeah. You know. Until we got the workers convinced that it would be better for them -- And nothing we could say or do -- nothing, you know -- We -- You know, when you organize and you don't get -- you've got -- you get some cards signed, you're not successful, you don't get them -- the majority, you know, you leave it alone, you go back a year later. You know, we -- this was one of those things, OK, it's time to go back to Cuddle Knit. And Cuddle Knit used to buy -- How employers make mistakes. He used to give all of his workers a turkey for Thanksgiving. And he used to give all of his workers a ham for Christmas, along with a bonus, a minimum of 25 and a maximum of 100. It's according to how long you worked for him, and that's what you got. This one -- Thanksgiving. He said business was very bad and he couldn't afford to give out the turkeys this year. So the workers said, "OK," you know, they understand. I mean, people are not really stupid. They understand. And then Christmastime came. And he said same thing, he couldn't give them hams and he couldn't give them the bonuses.

[25:01]

The industry is bad. He's not making that much money. He doesn't have that much business. And the people were a little bit disappo-- they were disappointed now, I mean, really disappointed. And then, the beginning of January, he shows up with a brand new Cadillac. (laughter) We got about 25 phone calls within the first three hours of the morning! And I went, "How do you like that? He did it for us." And that's what did it. You know? You don't shortchange the workers and then go out and eat lobster. You know? You just don't do that. And we organized him. I mean, he fought us. He hired some of the -- he hired an attorney called Marty Scher, S-C-H-E-R, who was an anti-labor attorney, which I thought was really very funny, because he used to be on John F. Kennedy's staff, at one time. I said, "Wow! You did a 180° turn! How did that happen?" He goes, "Because of that." So negotiated with him. And he gave -- You know, Ed Kraus, you know -- And I was used to calling him Mr. Kraus. I always called him Mr. Kraus. Mr. Kraus would sit there and never say a word and Marty Scher did all the talking. You know, "We're not going to do this, no--" And I'd say to him, "Well, what do you think, Mr. Kraus?" And he'd point to the attorney for everything. And one day we were sitting there and he turned like almost white. And I said, "What's wrong?" And Marty Scher looked at him and he goes, "Oh, he's OK." I said, "No, he's sick. Look at him." So I said, "Do me a favor," you know, "Loosen up his tie, something." The guy was really sick, you know. We called an ambulance. They took him to the hospital, whatever the case may be. It turned out it was indigestion. But he was sick at the time. And he was so thankful that I was so concerned. I got a contract -- merely because I said, "He's sick! Lay him down! Open up his tie! Call a doctor!" Contract. It takes nothing. And I didn't do anything wonderful, marvelous, or stupendous.

Soyer:

What kind of things have you tried to get through to the workers, up to that point? Do you remember --

Laufman:

Auh!

Soyer:

-- trying to figure out --?

Laufman:

We house-visited -- you know, we house-visited. One of them -- I'll never forget this in a million years. One of them, her husband was a presser in one of our shops. And I said, "Well, don't you want benefits?" you know. "My husband gets benefits," you know, "My husband gets the vacation days. I -- I don't need them." And I very nonchalantly shot back, "And your husband's going to stay with you for the rest of his life. He's never going to die. He's always going to be here. Right?" And she looked at me and she said, "Give me the card." It's common sense, you know? Women do things like that. You know? It used to drive me crazy. "I have to ask my husband." Your husband does not work in the factory. He's not subject to the things you're subject to. You have to make a decision. "I have to ask my husband," "I've got to talk to my husband," "My husband has this," "My husband --" And just --

Soyer:

Do you ever talk to the husbands?

Laufman:

Yeah, sometimes. From the carpenters' union: "Aeh, you're a bitch. Get out of here. I'll take care of my wife. She don't need you." Stuff like that. You know? And then other ones would really say, "Hon, sign." You know? So it happened. You had 50% one way, 50% the other. I loved talking to them, because I didn't give them a lot of malarkey. I gave them facts. And when this one was -- Like every time I spoke to her she would give me the same nonsense. "My husband gets everything he needs from the union," you know. My union. You know, it's my union that he's getting the stuff from. "I don't need it." That's when I developed that line. "Oh, and he's going to live forever and he's never going to leave you for a younger woman," you know. And I just made these women sit up and take notice. You know, "Start thinking for yourselves, honey." And it worked. It worked. So I used it quite a lot, you know, on some people. On other people I didn't even bother to go there. And with other people -- "My mother -- my grandmother used to be a seamstress," you know? And, "Well, you know how hard she had it. Don't you want it better than she had?" Yeah. Whatever they -- whatever ammunition I was able to use, that I could turn around, I used. I was fortunate. I was very lucky. I have to tell you, I -- I tell my kids -- I was recently sick, this year, really sick. But I'm alive, sitting here, to tell it. But I've had a good life. I'm 77 years old.

[30:00]

I married a good man. I had five children, raised them all before I went to work. And when I went to work I wound up making a career for myself. And my ascendancy to vice president -- from sewing machine operator to vice president was meteoric. I can't describe it any other way. I've had a career, made -- good career. I've made an impact on some people's lives, I hope, for the better, and maybe some not so much for the better. So I tell my kids all the time, "Don't cry for me," you know, "I've just done everything I would want to set out to do." That's as much as I can tell you.

Soyer:

And you said you quit at some point. Was that before the merger?

Laufman:

When I resigned?

Soyer:

Well, that's right. Your --

Laufman:

When I retired?

Soyer:

Yeah.

Laufman:

That was after the merger. It was after the merger, yeah. It was after the merger, which I was against.

Soyer:

You were against --

Laufman:

But --

Soyer:

Was that a common attitude, do you think, among the ILG officers?

Laufman:

Some of them were against it but --

Soyer:

Why were you against it?

Laufman:

I actually thought it was a good thing to do but I was against it because I felt that the principle parties that were negotiating the merger, and I wasn't one of that group, were not in it for the betterment of the workers. I thought they were in it for the betterment of themselves. Now, I really shouldn't say that on tape. But that's the way I felt. And I don't know. But the industry is declining, rapidly. There's nothing really that anybody can do to turn it around. If they stop sending work to China, China probably (laughs) has an atom bomb they could drop on us so we won't be able to do the work anyway.

Soyer:

I was going to ask about that. Because this -- your whole career in -- in the union, really, is from the point where it sort of gets serious --

Laufman:

Yeah.

Soyer:

-- sort of '70s and '80s and '90s.

Laufman:

Yeah, yeah.

Soyer:

So how did -- can you give me any concrete examples of how -- like you read about the big things, the imports and things like that -- how that played out on the local level?

Laufman:

Well --

Soyer:

And was there anything that you tried to figure out how to do on the local level to stop that? Was there anything you thought you might be able to do?

Laufman:

We did several things. One -- one of the things -- some of the things we did -- And it didn't come from me, specifically. It came just from wherever it came from. We used to have rallies, you know, in front of the garment shops. We used to get our members to go to Washington, you know, and to lobby our congressmen and senators. We always kept our membership involved in these sort of things. I, personally, took one, two, three employers, one of our lar-- three of our largest contractors on Long Island -- I, personally, took them to Washington, D.C., flew them down there, you know. And we then took them into the halls of Congress. And we had appointments with several different congressmen and senators, to get them to vote against certain bills. Evie Dubrow was very, very prominent in that. Nothing. We had -- we had, on Long Island, a very young man named Thomas Downey. I don't know if you know who he is or not.

Soyer:

I remember. Sure.

Laufman:

OK. Well, Thomas Downey was a very young man. And this is when Ed Banyai was there. And he came -- Tom Downey came to Ed Banyai's office and asked him to support him when he was running for Suffolk County legislature. He was 25 years old, very young. And Ed Banyai spoke to him for quite a while and then he agreed to support him, you know, spoke to the membership about it and, in the district that he lived in, spoke to some members to see if we can get them to support Tom Downey. Tom Downey came to some of our shops. And Tom Downey got elected to Suffolk County legislature. Then Tom Downey decided he was going to run for Congress. And one of our members, one of our pressers -- He was president of our local. His name was Jimmy Marchese. His daughter used to work for Tom Downey.

[34:57]

She was his legislative aide when he -- before -- she was his aide when he was a Suffolk County legislature, who -- legislator. When he went -- became a congressman, she was his legislative aide and his district office. And we used -- Tom was one of our friends. You know, when every election came he would call us. And we would bring him around to our shops and -- I have a picture of Tom Downey kissing me on this side and some campaign guy with him on the other side. I've got the picture someplace. And Tom Downey was really great -- very responsive to us. And then Tom Downey -- Tom Downey defeated a congressman who was a congressman for 12 years. His name was Clifford Spellman. And I'm speaking -- Because this was a district I lived in, so I knew who these -- the parties were. And Clifford Spellman did nothing. I mean, he was there for 12 years. He became bigger than his own britches. And there as nothing we could do about it. You know, Spellman was just there. He was undefeatable. And then Tom Downey ran against him. And we backed Tom Downey. And we did everything we could and we got Tom Downey elected. And now Tom Downey is there -- eight years I think he's there. He was four terms. I'm not sure if it was four or five. I think it was four terms he was there. And he was voting against some of -- You know, Evie Dubrow would go to see him. He would vote against some of our -- the acts that we wanted to pass. And Evie Dubrow called me and she said, "Barbara, is there something you can do?" And I went to speak -- I made an appointment and I went to speak to Tom Downey, when he was in the local district. And I went to see him. And he said to me, "Well, Barbara," he said, "you have to understand. Now that I'm in Congress, I have to look at the world picture," he said, "and I have to make decisions based on the world picture, not what's happening over here." And I had one or two of our members with me when I went to speak to him. And I said, "But, Tom, the way you get to look at the world picture is if the people here vote you in." He goes, "Well, I know that," he goes, "but I won the last election by 75% of the vote." Not going to happen this time, Tom. So what I did was I got -- made -- actually got a lot of our members together and we had this rally right outside of Tom Downey's office. And we brought speakers in from Manhattan. You know, New York -- New York people came in. And Tom Downey was defeated that year. He was defeated. And I was at Democratic Party Headquarters in Suffolk County. Dominic Baranello was the Suffolk County Democratic leader. And he wasn't too happy to see me there but I was there nonetheless. And Tom Downey lost. And Tom Downey said to me, "You proved your point. Thank you, very much." I said, "The members never forget who -- how you get to where you are. It's the people who live in your district." So he was defeated and that was that. I ran -- Oh, I forgot something. I ran -- When Walter Mondale was running for president, (laughs) I was an alternate delegate to the Democratic Convention, 1984. And Geraldine Ferraro was going to be vice president. Very historic time. I was a delegate to the convention, at that time --

Soyer:

Hm!

Laufman:

-- really wonderful.

Soyer:

Did you have -- you had a relationship with local Republicans as well or -- or really mainly to the Democrats?

Laufman:

Rick Lazio -- Rick Lazio, who beat Tom Downey, was a Republican and we supported him. Because his -- his ideas were really very good and very much like Tom Downey's were when he first ran for office. But then Rick Lazio also got (laughter) too big for his britches and then he threatened Hillary Clinton, when he was challenging her for the Senate seat. We were involved with -- There's an -- He's no longer there, in fact. He was just voted out of office. Caesar Trunzo, out in Islip Township. Yeah. No. You know, we -- I s-- we supported, you know, Republicans as well, if they were pro what the working people needed. When they weren't – Steve Levy, who's a Suffolk County supervisor, right now, I campaigned for him when he was a -- when he was a nothing. And I see him every once in a while. "Oh, hi, Barbara!" I've done a lot of politics as well.

[40:17]

Soyer:

Did you have any --? I know earlier the union was involved in the Liberal party.

Laufman:

That was before me.

Soyer:

That was before you.

Laufman:

Yeah. That was before me. I'm not tha-- I'm old but not that old. (laughs)

Soyer:

Right. That was a -- it was, you know, six-- it was probably sixty-- when Stulberg came in --

Laufman:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Soyer:

-- that he broke off. Sure. So they did-- you didn't have like any kind of special relationship with the Liberal party.

Laufman:

No. No, no, no.

Soyer:

No. All right.

Laufman:

Just involved with Democrats and Republicans and Republicans only if they decided they were going to go along with some of the issues that -- I mean, we needed them -- We -- I couldn't say I was only concerned about Republicans -- Democrats. Republicans were important too. But we needed everybody to be on our side. So.

Soyer:

I noticed that you -- you have a degree from Cornell?

Laufman:

Yes.

Soyer:

How'd that happen?

Laufman:

Ed Banyai. (laughs) I was working as an organizer. I was organizing -- colonizing, at the time -- colonizing, organizing Dee Knit, Farmingdale. And my husband saw this little blurb in the paper about Cornell starting a two-year labor relations course extension, at Cornell Universi-- from Cornell University, at the IBEW hall in Farmingdale, which was like 15 blocks, basically, 20 blocks away from where I was striking, working at Dee Knit, working -- colonizing inside. So I brought it to Ed. And I said to him, "Well, what do you think I should do?" So he says to me, "Well, I was just going to recommend you to go --" You know, the ILG had a school that they sent their people to, you know, which basically taught them some of the things that I learned at Cornell but not all the thing-- And Gus Tyler was the one who ran that program. So he said, "I was just going to recommend you for that class. But if you want to do this instead --" You know, but the other one I would do like during the day, my workday, so I would be going to school and getting paid. He said, "If you'd rather do this --" I said, "Yeah, I think so. I do." Crazy! Two nights a week, four hours a night, besides working, running home, cooking, getting my kids with their work done -- then running to school at night, all when I was striking. I would stay there until the last person left, which was usually about 5:30, quarter to 6:00, then grab a sandwich on my way to school. Then they switched it over to Farmingdale College. It was a very interesting time. We had Sam Kaynard, from the National Labor Relations Board -- was one of our instructors. We had Susan Paul, who teaches at Adelphi, I think. She was one of our instructors. I can't remember Kaynard's assistant's name. But he was one of our instructors. It was really an interesting class, because there were -- again, there was three women in the class, one who was a member of the butcher's local, who was a shop steward and used to co-- I used to want to kill her. She would come to class made up like Astor's pet horse --

Soyer:

(laughs)

Laufman:

-- with big bangly bracelets. And the other one was shop steward from 1115, which I don't think any longer is in existence.

Soyer:

What --? I don't know about 1115.

Laufman:

She was from 1115. I think they actually joined --

Soyer:

Oh.

Laufman:

-- 1199. I'm not sure. But I think -- and on their list from 1115. And me. And, of course, you had the electrical workers. Bud Fisher is now up in -- he's in Washington. He's somebody in the -- He was in the Electrical Workers'. He was a business agent at the time. He's now in Washington, D.C., working for the Electrical -- I don't know if he's still working or not. But that's Bud Fisher. There was Bernie Kerbs. There was Joe Riley.

Soyer:

How do you think what you learned there --? Did it -- did you ever feel like you were applying it to what you --?

[45:01]

Laufman:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I worked with -- I went to school with painters, from the painters' union. Yeah. You know, we would sit around and really talk, you know. And they were surprised when I told them what I did. And they said, "Well, isn't that against the law?" And I said, "No! Of course it's not against the law." You know? I said, "What do you guys do?" Well, they picket -- informational picketing. You know? And I said, "You stay there for how long?" "Thirty days." "And they're -- They outlast your for thir-- then what happens? You do -- you org-- you get members?" "No." So they thought what I was doing was really interesting, you know. So we used to toss these ideas back and forth. And it was interesting. It was a lot of fun. One of the guys that I went to school with is in the New York City Central Labor Council -- or was, a while back.

Soyer:

Can you think of any examples of when, after you were finished, you were in a situation where you said, "Ah!" you know, "I learned something that might apply to this."

Laufman:

Yeah. One time, one of the places we were picketing, the electricity went off. We don't why. The electricity just was kaput. So they called one of the electrical companies to come in to see what was wrong and to fix it. And lo and behold, one of the electricians is one of the guys I went to school with. And he goes, "Hey, Barbara, what's the problem?" I said, "I don't know." I said, "What are you doing here?" He goes, "Oh, the electricity is off." No kidding? "How long is it going to take to fix?" He's, "Well, let me talk to my guys. We'll find out." (laughter) That worked. You know? That's the only instance --

Soyer:

Oh.

Laufman:

-- that I can remember.

Soyer:

That's more of a connection, [you know?]. (laughter) Well, anything else that you want to --? I just want to go back to the -- the very, very beginning. Your parents, they were -- were they immigrants from Italy -- from Sicily?

Laufman:

My parents were both immigrants. And my mother married my father. My father was 14 years older than she was -- and had three children from his first marriage. First wife died of consumption. So two of the children from that marriage died. Only one was left. And that's the one that my mother's family was responsible for. And it was an arranged between my mother and father. And she married my father on Saturday and Sunday she was 16.

Soyer:

Huh.

Laufman:

And then they left to come to this country. My father was here once before and then went back to Italy when World War I broke out, which tells you how smart my father was. But he went back to Italy and served in the Italian army. And then whatever happened happened. And then he married my mother. They came to this country. And my father worked for the American Sugar Refinery, Domino's Sugar, on Kent Avenue in Brooklyn, worked there all of his life, until -- is it --? --

Soyer:

It's OK.

Laufman:

-- until he retired, worked there all of his life. And --

Soyer:

Was he a union member?

Laufman:

Yes. And my brothers -- one of my brothers worked there -- two of my brothers worked there. My mother used to do crochet beading at home. She had a license to do work at home. And as a child, literally -- You know, I think about it now. Yeah, it's funny. One of my daughters just gave me a book, Between You and Me, Mom. And it asks questions. And I've been writing in this book, because she wants it. And I was just mentioning this in my book, that -- in her book, that I used to take my mother's work that she was finished with -- And she used to give me the work in a bag. And she used to give me a small bag, which had my lunch in it. And she used to give me ten cents for the train. She used to c-- I used to get on the train, in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, go into Manhattan. She worked for J.R. -- J.R. Rubenstein, on 36th Street. And I used to bring the work there, give them the work. Ate my lunch on the train. He used to give me other work to bring back to my mother. I used to bring it to my mother -- spent the other nickel for the train ride back -- and then go to school. Because I had an hour for lunch. I was 11, maybe 12. I can't imagine my grandchildren, at 11, 12, going around the corner.

[50:21]

Soyer:

Right.

Laufman:

But I went into Manhattan from Brooklyn, at least twice a week. So my father worked as a maintenance man for Domino Sugar. My mother did home work, crochet beading at home, which I learned how to do. I know how to do that too. And I think it's very interesting, something that, when my second child went off to Cornell University, where she graduated -- where she graduated from -- She had to fill out an application one time. So she filled out -- They ask you all these things, these questions, you know, "What does your mother do? What does your father do?" So she put down I was a sewing machine operator and my father -- my husband was in management -- at the time. He worked for Kraft Foods. So when they sent the application back, the following year, you know, for financial assistance, it said, "Mother, factory worker. Mother -- father, manager." How dare they? (laughs) But that's what I was, a factory worker. And he was a manager. But that's it. You've just heard my life.

[51:57]

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